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And as for quality not all pre CBS strats are 'better quality' - not by a long shot. It's precisely because of the hand-made, hand wound, hand assembled modular approach that quality could vary enormously as there was no real quality control back then. Fender would use whatever woods and parts were available, & pick-up quality was another thing that varied hugely which is why you get so much variation of windings and voltage output. Even the neck plate numbers on pre-CBS Fenders could be up to a year out either way - why? Because they were kept in a large wooden box and pulled out at random - that's how much quality control there was. And which is why dating by neck and other components is deemed more accurate. And painting quality? When a sunburst finish went wrong Fender would repaint over the failed sunburst finish with a custom colour - and charge 5% more for the privilege.
So please don't try & tell me that a pre-CBS is more desirable because of superior quality - yes, there are some lovely pre-CBS guitars that genuinely have real mojo - but many are just good guitars that are no better than many later versions - their desirability is simply because of their pre-CBS status and because of the fiscal value placed on them by undiscerning dealers and owners who's self-interest is to perpetuate the myth that all pre-CBS Fenders are 'magical' and better than post CBS guitars, so as to inflate their values in order for dealers to line their own pockets & for owners to boost their own ego's. But often that overly inflated fiscal value is something that most pre-CBS Fenders do not deserve. It's got so stupid that people will even pay up to £1,000 to have a genuine year case or £1,000 for an original scratch plate - are you seriously telling me that the cases and plastic used then were better quality?
Thus, a 1969 strat may not be as valuable as a 1964 Strat, but it's still 48 years old which is probably older than most people on this board, and it's still a very desirable year and qualifies as a vintage guitar - Hendrix played 68 & 69 strats and Fender Custom shop has created 1968 and 1969 reissues for God's sake - and by so doing even Fender acknowledges that those years are Vintage.
I'm truly fed up with the narrow-minded attitude of certain people on this board who believe the ridiculous nonsense that all pre-CBS Fenders are fantastic and superior instruments just because they are pre-CBS, and all post CBS Fenders are pieces of trash and not worthy of being called 'vintage'. I'm sure there are quite a few nice pre-CBS guitars owned by folk here that are genuinely very good instruments that play nicer and sound better than typical later year versions - but I'm also willing to bet there are also more than a few that aren't.
So for anyone who disagrees, my message is simple - get off your pre-CBS 'mine's better than yours' and 'pre-CBS is the only vintage standard' high horse - & get over it. A good guitar is a good guitar and a bad guitar is a bad guitar regardless of year, and a 'Vintage Fender' is not restricted to only pre-CBS.
FWIW, when it comes to things that matter, like neck shapes, properly fitting neck pockets, weight and contouring, pre-CBS Fenders were very consistent, given the manufacturing methods available at the time.
Issues around originality are not about quality - they are about collectibility.
Yes their tone varied from sample to sample - but having had two almost identical 2005 Les Pauls at my house at the same time, with serial numbers a few digits apart - I can tell you they sounded 'very' different from each other. That's because wood (even of similar weight) varies from piece to piece.
The main reason a '54 Strat is worth more than an early '60s one, is because it is very rare - Fender simply built more in later years.
By the late '60s, there were production changes, which set those guitars apart from earlier ones - notably thicker poly finishes, which dratamically changed the feel of the instruments. As time progressed, more classic features went by the wayside; four bolt neck plates, two piece trem assemblies, pressed saddles, staggered pole pieces, etc. Wood was bought to hit a price-point - not a weight spec, finishes became 'much' thicker....
I'm not saying that individual later guitars were all bad - but the odds of finding a good one became progressively greater after CBS took over. Even the '65 I used to own was much less good than the '63 I also owned.
In the great scheme of things, the differences might seem marginal, compared to the differences in value across various periods. That said, the biggest madness to me in the 'vintage' market is that a late '70s dog is often dearer than a used CS guitar. That really makes no sense whatsoever....
I got a vintage Fender strat with CBS Headstock and E2 prefix serial (not the usual Sx prefix to indicate that the neck was made/assembled in the seventies). The neck is verified genuine by Fender and it is considered to be one of the last production CBS headstock neck used for assembly during the Dan Smith's smaller headstock era. The neck heel stamping however has 1985 stamped there with Herbie Gastelum's stamping to show that he finished/built the neck.
http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx224/AlanChanXD/Fender CBS E2 stratocaster/IMG_9627_zps467b533f.jpg
http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx224/AlanChanXD/Fender CBS E2 stratocaster/IMG_20120414_153637.jpg
http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx224/AlanChanXD/Fender CBS E2 stratocaster/IMG_20120414_153526.jpg
Previous owner added a rare vintage genuine Fender upgrade part - the Fender Brassmaster tremolo plate (with non-original saddles)
http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx224/AlanChanXD/Fender CBS E2 stratocaster/20121229_151815_zps0caf6bb5.jpg
http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx224/AlanChanXD/Fender CBS E2 stratocaster/IMG_9624_zps8e4c85b3.jpg
http://i758.photobucket.com/albums/xx224/AlanChanXD/Fender CBS E2 stratocaster/IMG_9628_zps24b2dad8.jpg
"I mean old by "vintage". Not just the usual cork sniffing ones. 80's Hamers ,Musicman,70's Guilds etc are great."
The thread is for old interesting guitars. They don't have to be 50's/60's Gibson's or Pre CBS Fenders.
@Richardhomer has summed things up lovely above.
Ultimately CBS took a design that was driven by a penny pincher and made it even cheaper. Like its stated above its not uncommon to fit a small Volkswagon in the gaps in quite a lot of 70s Fender neck pockets.
Panzer tank like weight and under wound pickups seem to be the mark of a 70s Fender (yes there are exceptions, but they are exceptions not the rule). Super thick finishes and oversized headstocks for advertising purposes and those bullet truss rods....eeeek.
I am against anything being deemed vintage because it is old. Its just an exercise in adding fake value to bad guitars for me. 70s Fenders and Gibsons created the problems that drove guitarists to seek out older models because the 70s models were so shoddy.
I also don't believe a guitar is good because it is old.
I have played a lot of bad guitars that are deemed vintage on no merit other than their age
I do wonder what your opinion would be if your strat was pre-cbs...
If we took the same analogy to cars would you all be insistent that a Datsun Cherry is a vintage motor because of its age? Yes it was better made than its UK counter part but it was still drab and uninspiring
The best sounding guitar ever - but presently unplayable due to having no frets left
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c239/jonny73/Mobile Uploads/6BBF8409-6BBB-47F3-AC2D-FC9EA6CC05CC_zpswnfshtgb.jpg
Make a day trip of it, take the missus somewhere nice and relax - there are some true craftsmen out there and it's worth it for something that means so much to you.
I forgot about Steve - He's the Manchester Guitar tech isn't he - Top bloke to deal with
Alternatively, sell it to me as an 'issues' Telecaster and i'll do it! ;-)
(formerly miserneil)
Exactly the same - because I'm not narrow minded and I understand the difference - pre CBS is pre CBS and is more desirable, but that vintage is still vintage. If you go to any vintage guitar dealer or even Fender themselves they will tell you that a 1969 Strat is still a vintage guitar. Now, as to what age ceases to be vintage is like how long is a piece of string and although the CBS transition is a natural break that makes it easy to determine a 'point in time', it doesn't negate the vintage status of some post CBS Fenders either.
Out of interest, if you want a unique manufacturing feature change with a vintage theme you should be aware that maple neck Strats in 1968/9 had a unique feature - for around 18 mths only, such guitars were special order because only rosewood board versions were standard in this period. For these special orders, maple finger boards had to be specially made and fitted just as rosewood boards - i.e. via a separate maple 'cap' and not a one-piece maple neck. This meant that the routing for the truss rod could be via the top of the neck and unlike one piece maple necks, there was no 'skunk stripe' filler (typically walnut) inserted into the back of the neck. Maple board strats were therefore more expensive in this period compared to the rosewood board price. Because of the limited numbers made (Hendrix had a maple cap board 69 by the way) maple-board capped strats are significantly rarer than rosewood board versions.
Aside from reissues, that manufacturing method has never beem repeated by Fender and after this period they reverted to a one-piece maple neck. So hows that for a unique vintage feature during a very limited time-line.
The most useful part of going in person is having a chat about which wire - and actually seeing and feeling some to get an understanding of the choices.. and talking him through how you want it set up/feel afterwards.. The big thing with a Tele like yours @Travisthedog is how you have the fretboard finished afterwards. Lacquered boards will probably require re-lacquering afterwards, and Steve really knows his spraying apples.
I'm sure the other two you've mentioned will be the same - I'm only talking from personal experience.
Quad erat demonstrandum.