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Don't expect them to make that much of a difference though. Why not just turn the gain up more?
If you do want to get one though I recommend the Tungsol. Nice sounding and high gain, can't really go wrong with them.
"Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski
"Only two things are infinite - the universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
Incidentally I found the new Chinese 12ax7-Cs to be almost as gainy but quite well balanced across the sound spectrum as well. They could also be a good choice, and are much cheaper.
"Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski
"Only two things are infinite - the universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
RFTs were stock in Marshalls in the mid-70s, yes - that may be partly why I like them so much, they're a perfect match for the amps, especially the 2203/4. Maybe not coincidentally, if the circuits were tweaked with them in place.
"Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski
"Only two things are infinite - the universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
"Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski
"Only two things are infinite - the universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
Ah! Was going to ask! See, the gain, "mu" of a triode is set by the relative distances of cathode, grid and anode and valves are made to incredibly tight tolerances (watches have nothing on them!) so if "12AX7" is stamped on a valve it should have the same specification as any other or it AIN'T a 12AX7!
A few years ago I was asked to build a device not many here will have used? It was a switching circuit that allowed two preamp valves to be compared in the same amp, using the same circuit components (the idea was to test if another supplier's product was as good/same as the current one) The "flipping" circuit was tested by two top players with excellent "ears" and the decision was yes, there WERE differences between SOME valve brands, especially as the valves were pushed into distortion but the differences were small and comparing two AMPS with different valve brands would be tricky due to all the other components and tolerances.
Said it before! I am sure there is a doctorate waiting for someone prepared to do a proper job on guitar amp "sound"? We NEVER get any recordings!
Dave.
It is possible though, when the differences are large enough - this demo of the Jet City Retrovalves demonstrates it, since they use three real valves as a control and one of them sounds quite a lot different to the other two.
While it's possible that that's just a duff sample, it does agree with what I know of those three types in a lot of different amps - so much so that I guessed the first one with a good degree of certainty before I'd even heard the others.
I otherwise agree with you that the actual 'gain' of the valve is of fairly low importance unless it differs wildly from the design spec though - but some modern-production valves do, and I would agree with you that this means they aren't really the 'correct' type - some rectifiers and power valves more than preamp ones, in fact.
"Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski
"Only two things are infinite - the universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
Ok IC I will whack that vid over my Tannoys later (but you KNOW I am pretty mutton!) I agree that recordings perhaps don't reveal very much (and if I were a cynical old sod I might say "coz there ain't much to find!") but then, who has done any REALLY well controlled tests with top end mics, converters etc? I would also expect a "re-amped" source not a real player.
The test rig I made for B's was to check that a different brand/supplier's valve was close to the then current production type. IIRC it WAS "differentiable" but not so much that anyone would notice or sue!
I am all for people trying things out and valves are an obvious and easy thing to swap. I just get a bit pissed off when firms make outlandish claims and charge a serious wedge.
Dave.
Using a re-amped source is definitely the best way to objectively compare things, but that does have the both good and bad effect of removing the player interaction. I now believe the subtle ways valves sound different, and yet in a somehow very natural way, when you alter your playing technique is one of their most important characteristics, rather than the sound itself - it's what I find frustrating about so many solid-state and digital amps, that you're forever having to tweak them even when you think you've got them set right… but then you change what you're playing slightly and they then sound 'off' again. Valve amps are far more forgiving and natural in that way.
"Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski
"Only two things are infinite - the universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
But if you can't hear it *and* you can't measure it, then there's probably no difference! And to be clear, if you're trying to prove there *is* a difference when you can't easily measure it, hearing needs to be backed up by blind testing of some sort otherwise it's very easy to fool yourself unless the difference is huge.
The differences with valves can also be very dependent on the amp - with some amps two valves will sound the same, with others the same two may sound noticeably different. I haven't tried swapping valves in a JVM, but my TSL seems fairly insensitive.
I agree about the cryogenic ones being BS though.
"Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski
"Only two things are infinite - the universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
"I agree about the cryogenic ones being BS though." Works for exotic blades IC! But then the extreme temperature change is not being undone by subsequent heating.
Frequency response tests are the heart of production line QC. The quickest way to tell if a chassis has the right bits "stuffed" is to check the response. Having spent many hours of the sort of fiddling, widdling, soldering and swearing that is needed to voice an amp it is the only practical way to ensure product consistency.
AFAIK every amp gets a "play test" but that is more I think to pickup gross problems such as a buggered speaker or a miccy or hissy bottle.
Dave.
I don't disagree at all, but that still doesn't mean that you can't hear small differences that don't necessarily show up by measurement.
Did you watch the Retrovalves video? The differences between the three real valves (or at least between the JJ and the other two) are large, not something you can put down to 'wishful hearing'. I assume they would show up on a frequency response test too, but I don't know.
"Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone." - Walt Kowalski
"Only two things are infinite - the universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein