Question About the Tonewood Debate Itself

thegummy · October 2018

Not wanting there to be any actual tonewood debate in this thread, I just have a question about the debate itself.

It's clear that, whether they're right or wrong, a lot of people believe/insist that the wood doesn't affect the tone on electric guitars.

Are there also a lot of people who believe that the size/weight of the wood on a guitar doesn't affect the tone; i.e. a very light extremely thin guitar vs. a much larger and heavier guitar, or is it that they don't believe the type/species of wood has any difference but the amount of wood there is does?

Again, not asking which side is true, just interested to know if the amount of wood used is debated to a similar degree or just the species.

Cheers.

Sporky · October 2018

I believe that, in general, the position put forward is that the species doesn't matter. This is often suggested when taken in the context of every other variable.

Roland · October 2018

The debates we’ve had on the forum have covered many factors. The advice from people who make guitars were that neck stiffness has the most noticeable effect. Body less so. Stiffness is affected by species, the way it’s cut, the way it’s put together (eg laminates), and size.

koneguitarist · October 2018

I am a firm believer that after all the different discussion, debates, opinions put forward my conclusion is, everything matters to a certain extent, material, species, stiffness, mass etc, but the biggest difference is always made by the player himself and also what the individual likes.

prlgmnr · October 2018

The correct people don't believe that there is any direct inference from species of wood to particular tonal characteristics in the finished instrument.

tekbow · October 2018

I think things like physical properties of wood are often confused with wood species.

Granted a given species will have a characteristic profile of physical properties with a range of values, but to say "mahogany" rather than "a denser piece of wood" is perhaps erroneous.

IMO, YMMV.

hyperben · October 2018

Some people believe some strange things so there probably are those who believe that yes. There shouldn’t really be a debate though. It’s just a fact that the wood makes a difference in quantity, density and species. No debate to be had really other than arguments with the inexperienced/ill-informed, or those who simply can’t get their heads around it the concept. Ultimately a great sounding guitar is just that. Spending time on the internet talking about detracts from time you could just spend enjoying playing it!

Jez6345789 · October 2018

I think it is a debate that is never fully resolved as there always seems whatever side you are on plenty exceptions on either side.

For a while I sort of went down the more is better so despite having small hands sort out thicker necks and never moaned about a heavy guitar. Then you pick up a light guitar that sings.

I also think the player is often more than the wood, frankly if you gave Robben Ford a well set up Squire Strat or Tele would he sound crap I very much doubt it.

A circle can sometimes never be squared and in some ways its better to just play the things LOL

Sporky · October 2018

hyperben said:

It’s just a fact that the wood makes a difference in quantity, density and species.

Playing devil's advocate, citation needed.

carlos · October 2018

hyperben said:

There shouldn’t really be a debate though. It’s just a fact that the wood makes a difference in quantity, density and species.

#FakeNews

Garthy · October 2018

carlos said:

hyperben said:

There shouldn’t really be a debate though. It’s just a fact that the wood makes a difference in quantity, density and species.

#FakeNews

Though if that is the case why aren’t they made of plastic?

koneguitarist · October 2018

hyperben said:

Some people believe some strange things so there probably are those who believe that yes. There shouldn’t really be a debate though. It’s just a fact that the wood makes a difference in quantity, density and species. No debate to be had really other than arguments with the inexperienced/ill-informed, or those who simply can’t get their heads around it the concept. Ultimately a great sounding guitar is just that. Spending time on the internet talking about detracts from time you could just spend enjoying playing it!

in what way is it 'fact' that quantity, density and species makes a difference?

where is the proof, what tests have you done, how many guitars were used and how many different bodies were used?

hyperben · October 2018

Lol

dindude · October 2018

koneguitarist said:

hyperben said:

Some people believe some strange things so there probably are those who believe that yes. There shouldn’t really be a debate though. It’s just a fact that the wood makes a difference in quantity, density and species. No debate to be had really other than arguments with the inexperienced/ill-informed, or those who simply can’t get their heads around it the concept. Ultimately a great sounding guitar is just that. Spending time on the internet talking about detracts from time you could just spend enjoying playing it!

in what way is it 'fact' that quantity, density and species makes a difference?

where is the proof, what tests have you done, how many guitars were used and how many different bodies were used?

Ears.

Danielsguitars · October 2018

I've said it before and I'll keep saying it, the people who don't believe should be playing the cheapest piece of crap built from pallets or anything vaguely like wood but they don't

Density does matter to me mostly for final playing weight

I have got something aranged to make a guitar out of some resin injected pine, apparently they can alter density to resemble say mahogany or swamp ash etc

It'll be interesting anyway

hyperben · October 2018

The magic in enjoying the guitar is finding one that speaks to you and playing the hell out of it. Everything else is irrelevant, as long as YOU are happy and enjoy it. It doesn’t really matter what you believe either. If you think these variables don’t mean anything then that’s fine, you’ve probably saved yourself thousands of £££.

digitalscream · October 2018

I've always thought that everybody approaches this argument backwards, which is why it's gone round and round forever.

The real approach is to take a bunch of different guitars (and I mean very different - Strats, Teles, Thinlines, semis, superstrats, Les Pauls etc), install identical pickups as much as is possible in addition to piezos, and then play them through the same amp...loud.

It's pretty obvious that they'll sound different, often in different ways (if only with the difference being the amount of feedback/environmental interaction when using the Thinlines and semis).

From there, you can work to explain the differences...instead of trying to predict differences based to questionable science and woo-woo.

koneguitarist · October 2018

I just get slightly annoyed when someone states something as fact, when it's subjective and often down to what the listener likes.
Everyone can hear a difference between a body being changed for another, however you can have two bodies of ash cut from same tree and still have a difference in tone?
And is that difference better or worse or are you just hearing a difference but not able to tell which is which in a blindfold test and if so it's meaningless anyway.
I agree just find a guitar that's comfortable and you like it and just play it.
As for @customkits comment, I use a tele with body made of ash and beech, still sounds like a tele, so did the mahogany body tele, the rosewood bodied tele, the Ash bodied tele, the Alder bodied tele.
So yes material and species make a difference in what way I have no idea!

thegummy · October 2018

customkits said:

I've said it before and I'll keep saying it, the people who don't believe should be playing the cheapest piece of crap built from pallets or anything vaguely like wood but they don't

In response to that statement - do you think the colour of a guitar makes a difference to the tone? If not, then should you only ever be playing guitars that are the natural colour of the wood used and never one painted a different colour?

Sporky · October 2018

customkits said:

I've said it before and I'll keep saying it, the people who don't believe should be playing the cheapest piece of crap built from pallets or anything vaguely like wood but they don't

That's a non-sequitur.

If someone thinks a given variable makes no difference then they should pay whatever they like, just as if they think it does.

Price is not relevant to this debate, unless you believe that the cost of a piece of timber has an effect on the sound of the finished instrument.

thegummy · October 2018

digitalscream said:

I've always thought that everybody approaches this argument backwards, which is why it's gone round and round forever.

The real approach is to take a bunch of different guitars (and I mean very different - Strats, Teles, Thinlines, semis, superstrats, Les Pauls etc), install identical pickups as much as is possible in addition to piezos, and then play them through the same amp...loud.

It's pretty obvious that they'll sound different, often in different ways (if only with the difference being the amount of feedback/environmental interaction when using the Thinlines and semis).

From there, you can work to explain the differences...instead of trying to predict differences based to questionable science and woo-woo.

For that, though, it would have to be a blind test and there would have to be many passes (because even the same person playing the same thing on the same guitar twice will sound different each time) and the listener would have to be able to consistently tell all (or almost all) the samples using whichever variable.

When the human ear listens to a sound then a few seconds later listens to a different one and tries to compare the subtleties of tone from his memory of those two sounds, it's completely unreliable. If the person is actually playing the guitar and can see what is being used each time then biases come in that makes it even more likely they'll think they're hearing certain differences.

I've personally never seen anything that comes close to a scientifically sound test about the tonewood thing, just people who believe they can hear a difference, or believe others who say they can, and people who can't hear a difference and/or believe others who say they can't hear any. That's why I don't have an opinion on it either way.

When it's something that's not even debated, like "humbuckers sound different to single coils", I'm fine to loosely go along with it, hence the original question.

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