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I've just had a little breakthrough and the answer is that although they may all have the same notes, they each have a distinct flavour. As mentioned by fishfingers above, a song in C major (ionian) and in A minor (aeolian) all have the same notes, but they will sound very different.
@viz, I think i answered my own question above... but would appreciate any further input from you.
Apologies all for rambling and thinking aloud..
Band Stuff: https://navigationofficial.bandcamp.com/album/silhouette-ep
Because G is not the tonal centre or ‘home’ note. So the song is not “in G”, because “in G” means “the tonal centre, or home note is G”.
Here is the hierarchy of how to approach the question of a key in a piece of music. You really have to answer these questions in order:
1) What note is home? That gives you the Tonic, or 1st degree of the scale.
2) Is the piece major or minor? (listen to the Mediant, or 3rd degree of the scale).
3) Is it ‘modal’? - ie if the 3rd tells you it’s major and it has a perfect 5th, does it have a raised 4th (Lydian) or a lowered 7th (Mixolydian)? If it’s minor, does it have a raised 6th (Dorian) or a lowered 2nd (Phrygian)? Otherwise it’s Ionian (major) or Aeolian (natural minor).
4) If none of the above then you’ve either got Locrian (unlikely), or a non-diatonic piece (entirely possible).
Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
Band Stuff: https://navigationofficial.bandcamp.com/album/silhouette-ep
The way I guess they made sense of it was by allowing V-I cadences regardless, thus deviating from the diatonic and allowing a major 3rd on the V, just like had been made common with harmonic minor centuries before.
The V7-Ib7 in blues is a classic example of this, as you say.
Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
The reason you play with a chart is because a repertoire of 20 tunes or so will have hundreds of chords to memorise. Sure, you will know a lot of tunes by heart, but usually learning the melody is much easier than memorising all those chord sequences. Plus you never know what you might play. The Real Book volume 1 (current edition) has 400 tunes in it! A cynic would say it's just II-V-I's over and over, but surely it's nice to actually have the chords in front of you.
I guess I'll stick my oar in too. This subject can get pretty deep and there is already some great advice here, but I’ll try to be succinct in the hope I don’t confuse things more...
@Steve922 I think the problem lies in how we are introduced to learning modes and it seems you’ve only looked at them from one angle perhaps?
There are generally two approaches to looking at modes - derivative and parallel (there are other ways though). Both have pros and cons regarding getting to grips with this stuff. It appears you’re taking the derivative approach, which is fine. Just to clarify...
Derivative - To get all the modes from a parent scale so the modes are all the same pool of notes. C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian etc are all just the C major scale as you know.
Parallel - To get the modes from a fixed note so you have to change the formula for each mode. How does C Ionian differ to C Dorian, C Phrygian or C Lydian and so on...
Knowing how modes are constructed and where they relate to is really important but is only one part of the equation. The other is the relationship with chords as each mode works with particular types of chords. It’s really pretty important to have a decent knowledge of diatonic theory and chord construction.
For example, Cm7 can use either C Dorian, C Phrygian or C Aeolian.
But for something like Cm6, it’s a little more exact so you’d want to go for C Dorian. I won’t go into why, but Cm6 comes from the Bb Major scale. So how can we find C Dorian?
Derivative - What major scale is C the 2nd note of? Yep Bb major and with Dorian being mode 2 you could just think Bb major but from C to C.
Parallel - how do you turn C Ionian to C Dorian? If you know how modes are constructed you know to flatten the 3rd and 7th of a major scale to get Dorian. So C D Eb F G A Bb C (1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7) which is still Bb from C to C.
Same result but different ways of getting there. But what shouldn’t change is thinking and playing in C Dorian.
Derivative was my way in for getting my head around modes, but much I prefer the parallel approach as it allows me to clearly hear and understand the differences between the modes.
Additionally it’s really important to be aware of the colour notes of each mode, how they sound and how to handle them. The natural 6th of Dorian is a great note to sit on, but the b6 of Aeolian much less so etc. Play Dorian, Aeolian and Phrygian in this order, to a min7 vamp and see how different each one sounds.
I remember being puzzled by this stuff for ages, but it does get there so stick with it.
So much for being succinct...
For me, whether I’ll think modally or just chord tones depends on a few factors. How many changes are in the tune and how fast the tempo. Even with a tune with a lot of changes and difficult chords, if the tempo is slow enough then modes can be explored. Pretty much anything with a fast tempo I’ll likely stick to chord tones, enclosures etc..
http://www.guitaristtv.com/Downloads/Modes%202014_02_18%20-%20for%20GTV.xlsx
Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
And yes, you can play a minor chord over the Dorian , Phrygian and aeolian, 7th over Mixo... etc
Q1
But can someone simply say how one determines what mode a chord SEQUENCE is in please?
eg
C E (maj) Am F - what mode is that in ?
I’ve thrown that one in because the move from G to G# in the first 2 chords, as well as the A natural in the last 2 chords. And no 3 consecutive semitones appear in any of the 7 modes scales ?
Or
Q2.
simple 12 bar blues E A and B
How can you play an Emin Pentatonic over that, as most people do - ie derived from the Aeolian of G major , which has a G natural in it; whereas the E major chord has a G# in it ?
Maybe that’s a completely different question however.
Many types of Music are pretty complex and sometimes new vocabulary has to be used to describe what's going on. You only need the vocabulary to describe what's going on if you're actually asked, or if you're asking in order to learn more.
Think about Arabic/Turkish Music for a moment. They have incredibly complex modes (not scales) that contain not just quarter tones, but much smaller divisions. And they have amazing complex systems during improvisations to move between modes. Also those modes have specific melodic "personalities" that according to the system have to behave in certain ways, otherwise you're not actually playing the mode correctly. They're not just choices of notes ascending or descending, but the modes have very specific emotional and melodic shape.
Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
2) Blues music plays on the tension between the major 3rd and minor 3rd; and also between the perfect 4th, augmented 4th (or diminished 5th) and perfect 5th; and the minor 7th and major 7th.
Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.
I now want to understand the jazz rules!
My band, Red For Dissent
my tips would be the following (FYI, I still struggle with the modes, 15 years on!)
learn the intervals of a scale. these are the numbers of the notes. this helps when you learn alongside the notes
modes work based on a root note. for example a root note of C. if you play a C major scale, and then a C Phrygian scale you should hear an immediate difference. the "difference" is what makes the Phrygian mode.
listen to music, different types of music and try to guess the "feeling" of them. sounds simple, but try it. for example:
the opening of star wars theme. I think everyone knows that. listen to the melody and try to capture that "feeling" its definitely a major mode. you could call it happy, epic, triumphant maybe. but then compare it to the imperial march (darth vader theme) that's definitely not happy! you could call it sinister, evil, not comfortable. this is the point im making, try to describe what you hear. so those 2 pieces are modal. yes its in a different key, but that's not the point, its the character of the piece you are hearing.
remember the Dr WHO theme? try to guess what mode the starting piece is? there is actually 2 parts to it see if you can hear it
if you are still struggling, then you may want to explore ear training, or pitch training. maybe your ears are not "hearing" certain intervals. even if you can't work out all the modes, just knowing three or four is enough for you to develop your own style.
good luck!
i hate the “one sounds happy and one sounds sad” explanation
no it doesn’t!!! It still doesn’t explain anything using Star Wars, as it did in school music lessons when the teacher said “doesn’t this sound happy”. No it didn’t then either.
Maybe what you think sounds happy isn’t what I imagine. And I play lots of “happy” upbeat songs starting on A minor.
Stairway to heaven when it gets rocky sounds very happy and energetic to me , yet it is Am G F
Or Happy Birthday? C G and F, so Ionian in C?
most miserable sounding song you can find - I think, maybe others think it sound happy?
Happy birthday to me is Happy and up beat . with or without the words. but the tempo needs to be upbeat or it can sound miserable with or without the words. sometimes tunes can be boring. I use the JAYJO mode for them.
Supportact said: [my style is] probably more an accumulation of limitations and bad habits than a 'style'.