Blending Bass Amp and DI

thegummy · November 2019

It seems that the majority of engineers I've read interviews from, or seen a tutorial video from, blend the DI'd bass track with a micced amp. That just seems to be very much "the done way". They also commonly say that one of the reasons they use the DI is to get the solid low end that an amp can't provide.

But when I record bass, which is always DI, I find the dry track doesn't sound so great and especially lacks low end. When I put it through an amp sim the low end comes alive.

Now, I know there's the whole "there are no rules, do what you like the sound of" thing, it's just that when the technique seems so ubiquitous it seems strange that to me the (simmed) amp just sounds so much better.

At first I thought it's maybe that the DI built in to my interface was weak and a better DI would have more low end but I've since listened to many demos of expensive and well-regarded DI boxes and the differences are fairly subtle, they all sound roughly the same as the sound that I find lacks low end.

What's your experiences and opinions on this? Is it maybe that heavy EQ is always applied to the DI track?

Whether one sound is "better" than another is nothing but personal taste, it's the low end thing that makes me wonder about this - that the thing they cite as the reason to use the DI is the thing I find its weakness.

Musicwolf · November 2019

I use the DI + (virtual) amp method. ‘Amp’ is either my Kemper or a sim but it’s a driven sound with the bottom end rolled off. Clean is usually compressed with top end rolled off.

Sometimes I just use the DI’d track through a sim. Just go with whatever works for you.

PolarityMan · November 2019

I dont often use the DI but I do split process the highs and lows.

Winny_Pooh · November 2019

When big ticket engineers say "DI" then its usually a channel strip or even tube preamp (REDDI), rather than a little DI box into a DAW.

thegummy · November 2019

Winny_Pooh said:

When big ticket engineers say "DI" then its usually a channel strip or even tube preamp (REDDI), rather than a little DI box into a DAW.

Listen to some recordings of high end DI boxes through high end preamps - like I said in my post, they basically all sound the same so that doesn't come in to it, my opinion on DI sound applies to them all.

Winny_Pooh · November 2019

thegummy said:

Winny_Pooh said:

When big ticket engineers say "DI" then its usually a channel strip or even tube preamp (REDDI), rather than a little DI box into a DAW.

Listen to some recordings of high end DI boxes through high end preamps - like I said in my post, they basically all sound the same so that doesn't come in to it, my opinion on DI sound applies to them all.

Ever used a Neve style pre with transformers and overdriven the output?

Also. If you take an active bass DI'd you may get a cleaner bigger low end from adding EQ rather than dirtier low end from an amp SIM which may just have one big peaky bump in 80-100hz range.

There are no rules though

thegummy · November 2019

Winny_Pooh said:

thegummy said:

Winny_Pooh said:

When big ticket engineers say "DI" then its usually a channel strip or even tube preamp (REDDI), rather than a little DI box into a DAW.

Listen to some recordings of high end DI boxes through high end preamps - like I said in my post, they basically all sound the same so that doesn't come in to it, my opinion on DI sound applies to them all.

Ever used a Neve style pre with transformers and overdriven the output?

Also. If you take an active bass DI'd you may get a cleaner bigger low end from adding EQ rather than dirtier low end from an amp SIM which may just have one big peaky bump in 80-100hz range.

There are no rules though

Actual Neve branded, yes. It doesn't boost the low end of a bass DI though. Or were you asking for another reason?

It's true that the DI can have "cleaner" low end (regardless if the bass is active or passive) but it does have a relatively quieter low end compared to an amp.

Might be worth mentioning that I'm not a newcomer confused about what to do and asking for help, I've done all 3 variations many times (before I could even play bass myself) and am interested in the philosophy of other people's approach who do a lot of mixing, especially if they use DI's either exclusively or blended with the amp (and use the DI for the low end).

Winny_Pooh · November 2019

In my personal experience the DI adds more clangy attack to cut through a mix rather than low end.

thegummy · November 2019

Winny_Pooh said:

In my personal experience the DI adds more clangy attack to cut through a mix rather than low end.

Aye see I can totally get that - the amp takes a lot of the higher frequencies away so the DI can add them in if that's the sound that's needed; if that's what the engineers always said it wouldn't even have stood out in the interview.

The ones who use the DI for the low end, though, I wonder if they do always boost the lows with EQ.

Maybe they don't EQ the track and like having a high level of the higher frequencies of the instrument so it comes through the other instruments more.

Think I might, as an experiment, try mixing some tracks with just DI bass with no EQ boosts on it.

It's not even that I'm unhappy with the bass sounds I get, it's just that it's so common that I really want to understand it better, even if it turns out to not be to my taste.

PolarityMan · November 2019

thegummy said:

Winny_Pooh said:

In my personal experience the DI adds more clangy attack to cut through a mix rather than low end.

Aye see I can totally get that - the amp takes a lot of the higher frequencies away so the DI can add them in if that's the sound that's needed; if that's what the engineers always said it wouldn't even have stood out in the interview.

The ones who use the DI for the low end, though, I wonder if they do always boost the lows with EQ.

Maybe they don't EQ the track and like having a high level of the higher frequencies of the instrument so it comes through the other instruments more.

Think I might, as an experiment, try mixing some tracks with just DI bass with no EQ boosts on it.

It's not even that I'm unhappy with the bass sounds I get, it's just that it's so common that I really want to understand it better, even if it turns out to not be to my taste.

For engineers who use it for the low end I think its more that they aggresively filter the highs out of the DI, then pin it with a limiter and use it as a very "pure and controlled" source for the very low freqs then take another copy, run through an amp to add the character. I do the same but I tend to run both highs and lows through an amp sim.

thegummy · November 2019

PolarityMan said:

thegummy said:

Winny_Pooh said:

In my personal experience the DI adds more clangy attack to cut through a mix rather than low end.

Aye see I can totally get that - the amp takes a lot of the higher frequencies away so the DI can add them in if that's the sound that's needed; if that's what the engineers always said it wouldn't even have stood out in the interview.

The ones who use the DI for the low end, though, I wonder if they do always boost the lows with EQ.

Maybe they don't EQ the track and like having a high level of the higher frequencies of the instrument so it comes through the other instruments more.

Think I might, as an experiment, try mixing some tracks with just DI bass with no EQ boosts on it.

It's not even that I'm unhappy with the bass sounds I get, it's just that it's so common that I really want to understand it better, even if it turns out to not be to my taste.

For engineers who use it for the low end I think its more that they aggresively filter the highs out of the DI, then pin it with a limiter and use it as a very "pure and controlled" source for the very low freqs then take another copy, run through an amp to add the character. I do the same but I tend to run both highs and lows through an amp sim.

I've seen Warren Huart do that on a Youtube video, though not really heard it mentioned elsewhere.

I didn't seem to have much luck trying it if I remember correctly. Seemed like the sub became its own instrument separated from the rest of the bass in a way.

I think when @Winny_Pooh mentions the word "clean", that's one of the key reasons there.

If the bass amp is overdriven and distorted then that can take a lot away from the low end (hence bass dirt pedals often having a wet/dry blend knob while guitar dirt pedals often don't) so if that's the case then the low end will definitely come from the DI track. But even if the amp isn't particularly dirty, low frequency content seems to be better reproduced when it's cleaner.

Also, while some might EQ the DI to be more low endy, I think a lot leave the track as it is. While I've been seeing it as the DI having less low end than the amp, I've been level matching the sounds and that is definitely the case. However, I heavily low-passed everything except the low end out of both and then level matched them (i.e. turned the level of the DI up) then removed the filtering. What this results in is the low end on each being the same but the frequencies above that being louder than the DI track.

So instead of looking at the DI as having less low end, I can look at it as having more mids and high end. Instead of seeing the DI option as choosing lower level where the bass and kick are, see it as choosing to have more of the bass guitar in the range of other instruments.

To many this might sound like the neurotic ramblings of a mad man but hopefully at least someone will understand and find it interesting lol.

andy_k · November 2019

Di plus some form of saturation- and then duplicate for low / high process, keep low end mono, blend in a mic'd version for more width, or use another duplicate with amp/speaker simulation, but keep the low end clean and focussed in mono.
I actually prefer to use a VST and midi for my own stuff to keep things controlled. Eurobass 2 is very good for this.

WiresDreamDisasters · November 2019

Be careful with phase issues. You'll need to re-align your amp'd recordings to the DI. Otherwise they'll phase cancel and sound shit.

Stuckfast · November 2019

I always take a DI if I'm recording bass, for a few reasons.

(1) In my experience many bass players, even good ones, actually don't have very good amps.

(2) I'm often recording live with other instruments in the same room, so there will be spill on the mic.

(3) If the player is using any effects pedals it's vital to get a bass track that's pre-FX, because these often don't work for recording.

(4) To get the bass to sit in a mix at the right level you sometimes need more upper mid-range than most players have dialled in on their amps.

Then I'll either use the DI on its own or blended with an amp track. But, yes, the DI track will always be processed in some way. Actually my favourite bass amp sim is the Softube Bass Amp Room, which allows you to blend an amped and a DI'ed signal internally. Sometimes I'll use that set to 100 percent DI, but it still processes the sound.

thegummy · November 2019

Stuckfast said:

I always take a DI if I'm recording bass, for a few reasons.

(1) In my experience many bass players, even good ones, actually don't have very good amps.
(2) I'm often recording live with other instruments in the same room, so there will be spill on the mic.
(3) If the player is using any effects pedals it's vital to get a bass track that's pre-FX, because these often don't work for recording.
(4) To get the bass to sit in a mix at the right level you sometimes need more upper mid-range than most players have dialled in on their amps.

Then I'll either use the DI on its own or blended with an amp track. But, yes, the DI track will always be processed in some way. Actually my favourite bass amp sim is the Softube Bass Amp Room, which allows you to blend an amped and a DI'ed signal internally. Sometimes I'll use that set to 100 percent DI, but it still processes the sound.

There's definitely many practical reasons to record a DI, my question is really regarding the mix when they have recorded an amp track but still use a DI. Or, increasingly commonly, record a DI then put it through an amp sim but also keep a copy of just the DI track itself.

Interesting that the Softube Bass Amp sim still processed the sound when fully set to "DI" option - I wonder if it's actually modelling a specific DI box. I know that the Waves GTR has an option that is a model of a DI box.

Also quite interesting that there are some engineers who plainly feel that bass just works DI and don't bother with the hassles of recording an amp, there are many who do feel even a clean amp tone is important enough to catch (or simulate) along with the DI track then there are some who see the amp as a vital part of the sound just like with guitars. I find it less common that someone would utilise each of those methods for different occasions, tends to be that they fall in to one of those camps.

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