If Squiers Were Rebranded Fender

thegummy · March 2020

I wonder what would change if Fender decided to use the Fender name on the headstocks of all their instruments including the ones that are currently branded Squier instead (but everything else kept the same).

Would those models sell more than they do now? I think they would. I'm ashamed to admit it but the branding is so deeply ingrained in me from a young age that the Squier logo would factor in to my decision to buy.

I'm not sure if Fender would benefit from it much, they can probably charge a certain amount extra for Fender branded instruments even after taking everything else in to consideration.

What is strange is that there are low end acoustics and there used to be electrics that were cheaper than Squiers that did have the Fender name. Maybe they were okay with it with models that were so far away from the MiM Standard whereas if the high end Squiers had Fender branding they could eat in to the sales of the MiMs.

Also worth mentioning that some companies like Ibanez and Schecter use the same brand from cheapest entry level instruments right up to very high end models.

Any thoughts?

guitargeek62 · March 2020

They essentially did this a few years back with the Modern Player* series. Those guitars were made alongside the Squier Classic Vibes with identical materials and hardware, but unique pickup combinations and other specs, and had Fender branding. They weren’t drastically more expensive in price, and were well-made guitars as you’d expect from the CVs. I’m not sure if it had the effect of cheapening the brand at all, but it was a little puzzling at first.

*I think, could have been named differently!

Musicwolf · March 2020

The 'Fender' brand has a value built up over many years (same as Coke a Cola or Heinz or BMW etc). Having that name on the headstock adds $X to the price. If you apply the same brand to the Squires you will increase their desirability and therefore increase sales or command a higher price but you will also, over time, reduce the value of the 'Fender' brand. You may also cannibalise your own sales i.e. someone who would have purchased a ‘Real Fender’ now buys a ‘Squire Fender’ instead spending less money in the process.

Diluting your established brand value is a one off gain akin to selling off the family silver.

sawyer · March 2020

There's the upgrade factor too. You buy a squire to learn on, or due to funds ,but ultimately you aspire to a 'real' Fender one day.

TTBZ · March 2020

Doesn't really bother me but I've never really been into Fenders so a Squier gets the job done for that sound and feel at much better price. I'm more into cheaper guitars anyway as I'm a serial fettler and changing out pickups/wiring in a more expensive guitar makes it even more expensive. On the Squier I could have 90% of the same feel with some higher end pickups and hardware for the same or less money.

Or priced between the two a parts guitar with the exact spec I'd want, with no logo at all on the headstock

Sassafras · March 2020

I actually think brand-obsession is a form of mental illness and deserves our sympathy.

breakstuff · March 2020

I really don't think that there's any real need for rebranding to be honest. Squier are a pretty well respected brand in their own right nowadays, which certainly wasn't the case twenty years ago.

idiotwindow · March 2020

Recently bought one of the FSR Esquire models for not much more than 300 quid and it is superb. I’m glad it has Squier on the headstock - if nothing else, it appeals to the reverse snob in me.

dogload · March 2020

Not bothered particularly.

My main 'live' guitar is a Squier J Mascis Jazzmaster because it is a superb guitar. I've got a 'proper' American Jazzmaster as well but the Squier is the better instrument for playing in the band, and I don't really give a toss if people are snobby about it being Squier.

In fact I've always played Squiers - my main Tele is a 1986 (or is it 88? Anyway...) Squier, and I sold my Japanese Fender Jag because I preferred my Squier VM one.

If it's a case of getting a good quality instrument for a fraction of the price of a 'better'-branded one, give me the cheaper option.

Incidentally, I also apply this approach to mushy peas. I find that the cheap, Morrisons branded mushy peas are much better than the more expensive options such as Bachelors. They have that traditional, chip shop taste and the snot colour that more expensive brands eschew in favour of vivid green and a more-solid consistency.

prowla · March 2020

Having Fender is the premium product and Squier as the budget one gives a clear line of demarcation.

After all, the Squier brand was set up to compete against the cheaper copies.

When they blur the lines then it only gets confusing.

To me, a Squier is a sub-£100 instrument, regardless of people selling cherished VM-whatevers for £00s...

However, cheaper Fender branded instruments just cheapen their range and add confusion.

I think the whole brand is in a mess.

NelsonP · March 2020

dogload said:

My main 'live' guitar is a Squier J Mascis Jazzmaster because it is a superb guitar. I've got a 'proper' American Jazzmaster as well but the Squier is the better instrument for playing in the band, and I don't really give a toss if people are snobby about it being Squier.

Interested to hear more about why you think the Squier is better than the US jazzmaster.

I have a j mascis with upgraded pickups, tuners and trem and it's great. I played a Vintera '60s mod in a shop, but preferred my j mascis, mainly because the action on the vintera meant that it was more of a cheese cutter than anything else.

I feel like they may have discontinued the j mascis because it was too good and was blurring the lines between squier and fender.

digitalscream · March 2020

Hasn't this already happened? The original Japanese Squiers have now become Japanese Fenders. Then the Mexican Squiers became Mexican Fenders...

Funkfingers · March 2020

thegummy said:

I wonder what would change if Fender decided to use the Fender name on the headstocks of all their instruments including the ones that are currently branded Squier instead (but everything else kept the same).

To paraphrase Douglas Adams, this may have already happened.

Back in the Eighties, the first MIJ System One Stratocasters reached the UK with Fender decals. A year or so later, identical spec guitars arrived with Squier decals.

Similarly, in the early Nineties, the Standard MIK Stratocasters, Telecasters and basses have, at various times, been badged Fender or Squier.

prowla said:

Having Fender as the premium product and Squier as the budget one gives a clear line of demarcation.

Fender is the brand to which customers are supposed to aspire. Squier is intended to be the first step on the way to the top of the range stuff.

Unfortunately, there is no linearity to the quality per Pound. A fifteen hundred quid USA Fender instrument is not five times as "good" as a three hundred quid SE Asian Squier.

prowla said:

the Squier brand was set up to compete against the cheaper copies.

IMO, Fugigen was co-opted into building guitars under the Fender corporate umbrella rather than for anyone else. That way, Fender M.I. kept the profits of their founder's intellectual property.

At the time of this post, I have FMIC products ranging from a modified Affinity STRAT to a Custom Shop Nocaster and various other price points in between. I would cheerfully be seen in public with any of them.

bully · March 2020

I think at this poin it's a bit too late to do it, even if they wanted to.

On one hand I don't think its terrible for a company to have its entry and mid ranged items to be branded the same; from Ibanez to Gretsch, hell PRS - despite their "low end" being (unless on sale) comparable to mexican fender in price for example. There does give some sense of brand unity, and some pride across the board. Though obviously Gibson and Fender & Music Man don't follow that.

Theres a few ways to look at it, to the average person you can view all under one roof brands as a way to advertise. No matter what instrument you play, its got that name on the headstock. Now that can backfire somewhat if you have a bad experience with a lower end, and associate with the brand obviously. On the flip side, you have the aspriational and associative (think I just made up a word) value of split brands, Gibsons and Fenders are seen somewhat as the general end game of guitars (obviously anyone on this form knows that is not a true statement, but talking general public, including non-players!).

In terms of "I've played X that is better than Y" - absolutely. Given so much human elements - even in the CNC and mass produced world, you can get the perfect storm on both ends. Now theses are obviously just anacdotal, but I remember watching John Mayer talk about his Strat that Fender made for him coming and not being quite right, and turned out the wiring hadn't been done correctly (might be a little off on that, just remember he talked about putting the guitar in a fridge over night which tickled me). The joking statement of "made on wednesday" I've seen bandied around, where the workers are nice and warmed up and hitting their stride on a Weds, before they hit the end of week burnout, end up with the best of the products they did that week. When I had a chance to cherry pick through a few guitars in Wembley at Christmas, I think it was the lowest end American Tele, and to me it felt off, obviously great, but when I picked up the Classic Vibe, everything felt more locked in - now had I gone to another 9 of each, I am sure it would be a different story.

Weirdly enough Fender does put their name on some of their lower end Accoustics.

dogload · March 2020

NelsonP said:

dogload said:

My main 'live' guitar is a Squier J Mascis Jazzmaster because it is a superb guitar. I've got a 'proper' American Jazzmaster as well but the Squier is the better instrument for playing in the band, and I don't really give a toss if people are snobby about it being Squier.

Interested to hear more about why you think the Squier is better than the US jazzmaster.

I have a j mascis with upgraded pickups, tuners and trem and it's great. I played a Vintera '60s mod in a shop, but preferred my j mascis, mainly because the action on the vintera meant that it was more of a cheese cutter than anything else.

I feel like they may have discontinued the j mascis because it was too good and was blurring the lines between squier and fender.

I've modded the Mascis I use in the band - it now has a Fender trem, roller bridge, a Mojo pickup at the bridge and replaced wiring. I didn't say it was better than the US one, just better for band requirements.
Apart from not wanting to gig my (pricey) US one, the JMJM has a more comfortable neck with fatter frets and the pickup combination is adaptable enough for our whole set.

prowla · March 2020

Funkfingers said:

thegummy said:

I wonder what would change if Fender decided to use the Fender name on the headstocks of all their instruments including the ones that are currently branded Squier instead (but everything else kept the same).

To paraphrase Douglas Adams, this may have already happened.

Back in the Eighties, the first MIJ System One Stratocasters reached the UK with Fender decals. A year or so later, identical spec guitars arrived with Squier decals.

Similarly, in the early Nineties, the Standard MIK Stratocasters, Telecasters and basses have, at various times, been badged Fender or Squier.

prowla said:

Having Fender as the premium product and Squier as the budget one gives a clear line of demarcation.

Fender is the brand to which customers are supposed to aspire. Squier is intended to be the first step on the way to the top of the range stuff.

Unfortunately, there is no linearity to the quality per Pound. A fifteen hundred quid USA Fender instrument is not five times as "good" as a three hundred quid SE Asian Squier.

prowla said:

the Squier brand was set up to compete against the cheaper copies.

IMO, Fugigen was co-opted into building guitars under the Fender corporate umbrella rather than for anyone else. That way, Fender M.I. kept the profits of their founder's intellectual property.

At the time of this post, I have FMIC products ranging from a modified Affinity STRAT to a Custom Shop Nocaster and various other price points in between. I would cheerfully be seen in public with any of them.

Yes, I agree that 5x price != 5x quality.

I've also got an Affinity Strat, and a USA Standard Strat; they are both Strats, but every part, aspect, feel of the US one is better. (Coincidentally, I think the 5x price applies on what I paid for those too, but I'm not sure I could translate the price differential into measurable attributes.)

It's a bit like most things; it costs a lot more to improve those last few percentage points.

I have to say though that buying a Fender is a minefield and if you chuck in the counterfeits, upbranding, and other dodgey practices, you have to tread very carefully.

fields5069 · March 2020

guitargeek62 said:

They essentially did this a few years back with the Modern Player* series. Those guitars were made alongside the Squier Classic Vibes with identical materials and hardware, but unique pickup combinations and other specs, and had Fender branding. They weren’t drastically more expensive in price, and were well-made guitars as you’d expect from the CVs. I’m not sure if it had the effect of cheapening the brand at all, but it was a little puzzling at first.

*I think, could have been named differently!

Also worth noting is that the Starcasters were Baja Tele money, and yet the latest Squier Starcasters, which look exactly the same, are now less expensive. I think it turned out to be a failed experiment, an attempt to create more of a profit margin from Squier-esque guitars.

JohnCordy · March 2020

I've played one of the Vintera jaguars (I think) and it's decent, but not necessarily better than the j mascis I have?

One point that probably is objectively better are the Mexican and American bridges on the jazzmasters as the Chinese one isn't world class ..aside from that

TeleMaster · March 2020

They'd still be the same quality and would be considered as such, so just like I have no need to buy a MiM Fender, (even though they are good ideas) I wouldn't buy one of them.

Babones · March 2020

Nevermind the Squiers. What about all the Fenders with 'Corona, California' on them.

thegummy · March 2020

breakstuff said:

I really don't think that there's any real need for rebranding to be honest. Squier are a pretty well respected brand in their own right nowadays, which certainly wasn't the case twenty years ago.

Squier is more accepted now than 20 years ago but is nowhere near the respected brand that Fender is.

I don't think it ever could be, Fender must be up there with some of the most prestigious brands in the world.

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If Squiers Were Rebranded Fender

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