Rivera era Fender Super Champ - closest modern equivalent?

Bork · May 2017

veldt666 said

SC head into a 2 X 12, or 4 X 12, is massive

If I were to spec my own custom amp it would be a 2 channel SC preamp(s) with valve rectifiers into dual power sections each feeding a 12" cone. Buffered effects loop, post eq preamp out and power amps in for stereo delay and modulation.

Maybe I need to give up the avocado toast for a while and start saving.

veldt666 · May 2017

Lol, before you lash out, experiment a bit.
For a few years, I used my SC combo, as a pre amp, use the Line out, to a stereo processor, then, out, in Stereo, to a power amp, feeding, either, 2 X 1 X 12 Boogie cabs, or a stereo 4 X 12.
set the mix in the processor to 50/50, wet/ dry, & you will hear the true potential of the pre amp section. You still have the source sound coming from the 1 X 10 spkr, but compared to the processed sound, it's insignificant, in level.
Probably the best sound I had for years, I just got fed up, connecting it all up at every gig.

Give it a bash.

Bork · May 2017

I *think* Alan Murphy may have done something similar to you. If the magic is in the preamp, that's a hell of a lot cheaper to commission from a builder than a full blown amp.

ICBM · May 2017

Bork said:

I *think* Alan Murphy may have done something similar to you. If the magic is in the preamp, that's a hell of a lot cheaper to commission from a builder than a full blown amp.

As far as I know, like veldt666, he used the whole amp, and connected the Line Out jack - which is post power amp, just a tap off the speaker connection - to the rest of his system. The 'magic' isn't just in the preamp.

For what it's worth I fitted mine with effects loops - at the reverb mixer stage - and ran two in stereo with one preamp feeding both power amps via a Boss SE-70 in the loops. That needs an FX unit which will take line level though - without adding pad/re-amp circuitry the loop is then at too high a level for pedals.

Bork · May 2017

I wasn't aware the line out came from the power amp, first time I've ever heard of that. Sounds like I'm back to square one.

I'm not going to compromise on something with a larger cabinet (which will mean a 12" speaker). I have two 5E3 based combo amps with 10" cones so have no real appetite for another small speaker combo.

Bork · June 2017

Welp...I've pulled the trigger on a Fender Concert II (Rivera era). It's not a Super Champ but the cleans will be deeper. Still need to find the gain sound but I have options to explore.

exocet · June 2017

Bork said:

Welp...I've pulled the trigger on a Fender Concert II (Rivera era). It's not a Super Champ but the cleans will be deeper. Still need to find the gain sound but I have options to explore.

I had one of those back in the late 80's, great amp. You need to crank it a little to get the best from it (not stupid levels though).

ICBM · June 2017

You can make a huge improvement to the drive channel by modding it by moving the tone stack to after the distortion rather than before - which can be done with no new parts or even wire, from memory. This will increase the amount of gain and the effectiveness of the EQ.

Although in this case, I might leave it alone since it's probably more like the Super Champ as stock... crank the mids to get more gain.

Bork · June 2017

exocet said:
I had one of those back in the late 80's, great amp. You need to crank it a little to get the best from it (not stupid levels though).

Yes I've had Ebay searches saved for Rivera Princeton and Concert II and while there have been plenty stateside, the shipping and modding for 240v supply have made them an expensive proposition to land here.

Even in the UK they don't come up often and when they do, they tend to be well north of £600. I just happened to look on Ebay on Thursday and boom - there were two well under £600 and the other one was collection only. Funny how life works like that sometimes, same thing happened with a Wilkinson VS100CV trem recently - like unicorn poo over the last 10 years but I found one within seconds of looking last month. It wasn't cheap though.

£400 is a great price for a handwired classic from one of Fender's best eras of amps. I don't expect to lose money on it if I ever need to sell. It'll be a perfect compliment for the Burman Pro501 I also have.

Bork · June 2017

ICBM said:

You can make a huge improvement to the drive channel by modding it by moving the tone stack to after the distortion rather than before - which can be done with no new parts or even wire, from memory. This will increase the amount of gain and the effectiveness of the EQ.

Although in this case, I might leave it alone since it's probably more like the Super Champ as stock... crank the mids to get more gain.

I anticipate the rest of the Rivera era amps may climb in value a little as the market appears to have overlooked them despite having so many highly valued qualities. Leaving it as stock as possible would be ideal if it didn't already have an Eminence Patriot. It was last serviced three years ago so I may need to get it and a bunch of other valve amps I have serviced before I move them to where I am overseas. I will certainly give your suggestion some consideration - thanks!

An alternative that has been suggested to me is to use a preamp like a Mesa Boogie Studio to give it some extra kick.

Richardj · June 2017

What about one of the Rivera Pubster series? Much simpler, essentially single channel with a pull boost, but handily the boost has it's own gain and master volume too so huge range of tones available.

Bork · June 2017

Now I've got the Concert, I'll settle down with it for a while and see what happens. In terms of gain options, I have a Burman preamp, an Empress Parametric eq with boost, an Amptweaker Tight Rock, a Boss SD1 with seeing eye mod and a Joyo American Sound JF14 to push it with before I commit to any more purchases.

If I were to consider a Rivera combo, I'd probably go for an M60 if I could find one. But a Trace Elliot Trident might be better value.

Bork · June 2017

Chaps, a new discussion but on a related topic is here:
http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/106224/questions-fender-concert-ii-rivera-era-planning-mods-and-footswitches?new=1

Thanks in advance for any advice you can offer.

Bork · March 2020

And have just bought a near mint PRII. Concert II will be up for sale shortly as it's too loud for my needs.

Ossyrocks · June 2021

Thread bump.

A couple of months ago I snagged a Champ II on ebay for a reasonable price. That amp has now been fully recapped and revalved (I added a bias trimmer too).

Then, this week, just like buses, along came a Super Champ, also on ebay. I put in a lowball offer expecting to negotiate a bit, but the offer was accepted and I'm expecting the amp in the next few days. It was described as "in need of refurbishment", but it looks to be all there, just dirty with tarnished hardware. I'll keep you posted.

Rob

MCluer · June 2021

Brilliant little amp. Mine is all stock, sounds fantastic. No issues with the hard to find 6c10 valve, although I do have a spare just in case!

Ossyrocks · June 2021

MCluer said:

Brilliant little amp. Mine is all stock, sounds fantastic. No issues with the hard to find 6c10 valve, although I do have a spare just in case!

That's good to know. I'm really looking for to getting my hands on it. I was a bit worried about that 6C10 and may get a spare too, but all I can find is an NOS RCA from Watford Valves for £68. I'll keep looking at those prices.

@MCluer, as yours is stock, have you checked the current draw on the 6V6's in the absence of any bias trimmer? With my Champ II, all the pairs of 6V6's I tried were drawing 40+ma, so I had no choice but to increase the negative bias voltage.

Rob

exocet · June 2021

Ossyrocks said:

MCluer said:

Brilliant little amp. Mine is all stock, sounds fantastic. No issues with the hard to find 6c10 valve, although I do have a spare just in case!

That's good to know. I'm really looking for to getting my hands on it. I was a bit worried about that 6C10 and may get a spare too, but all I can find is an NOS RCA from Watford Valves for £68. I'll keep looking at those prices.

@MCluer, as yours is stock, have you checked the current draw on the 6V6's in the absence of any bias trimmer? With my Champ II, all the pairs of 6V6's I tried were drawing 40+ma, so I had no choice but to increase the negative bias voltage.

Rob

I could be wrong but I think the European equivalent was the ECH42

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/260992711941?epid=695738106&hash=item3cc460bd05:g:XH8AAOSw46BdeqYS

Ossyrocks · June 2021

exocet said:
I could be wrong but I think the European equivalent was the ECH42

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/260992711941?epid=695738106&hash=item3cc460bd05:g:XH8AAOSw46BdeqYS

I'll look into that. Cheers

ICBM · June 2021

exocet said:

I could be wrong but I think the European equivalent was the ECH42

No, that's not remotely the same type of valve, the 6C10 is a triple triode. I'm almost certain there is no substitute for the 6C10.

Image: https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/XH8AAOSw46BdeqYS/s-l500.jpg

However, there is a simple way of modding the amp so you don't need one at all... as stock, the reverb driver is a paralleled 12AT7 (standard for Fender) and the 6C10 is used for the reverb recovery, intermediate gain stage and phase inverter.

If you remove one half of the 12AT7 from the reverb driver (change the cathode resistor to 1.2K), you can then use the spare half for the reverb recovery, put an adaptor plate over the 6C10 socket hole and fit a 12AX7 for the intermediate stage and phase inverter. This does reduce the amount of reverb slightly, although not that much - but why they didn't design the amp like that in the first place rather than using an obscure valve type, I have no idea.

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Rivera era Fender Super Champ - closest modern equivalent?

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