Can modelling amps create the future ?

guitarfishbay · October 2014

monquixote said:

It's already happened it's just passed most of us old farts by.

In a lot of djent they use modellers as their preferred choice for hyper aggressive gated stuff. They aren't bothered about valve amps.

The Djent tone is achievable with amps - you just need (potentially multiples of) EQ, Drive, Gate. It just is a lot easier to make it happen on a digital unit.

IIRC Misha Mansoor's old setup involved two gates, a compressor, a drive, and an Engl (which are usually tight amps). From what I remember, part of why he went to the Axe FX was he couldn't always get the right amps as backline on tour.

monquixote · October 2014

guitarfishbay said:

monquixote said:

It's already happened it's just passed most of us old farts by.

In a lot of djent they use modellers as their preferred choice for hyper aggressive gated stuff. They aren't bothered about valve amps.

The Djent tone is achievable with amps - you just need (potentially multiples of) EQ, Drive, Gate. It just is a lot easier to make it happen on a digital unit.

I think the difference seems to be (from my limited knowledge) is that kids into Djent aspire to own an AxeFX not a Marshall or Mesa.

ThePrettyDamned · October 2014

jpfamps;372144" said:
ThePrettyDamned said:

I disagree - yamaha thr, blackstar ID and id core are excellent - and the ID range of gigging amps actually *feel* like amps, something @darcym has alluded to.

I used a Blackstar ID at rehearsal recently, and it sounded so poor even the horn section commented on it (and they normally don't listen to the guitar!).

All I was asking from it was a clean sound with a bit of reverb or delay for mainly Ska rhythm playing, so hardly an exacting task.

I'm a bit surprised really, I've heard a wonderful clean tone with chain being strat - el cap - blackstar ID 2x12 stereo.

Sounded really pretty, and sounded like a valve amp! Maybe you were unlucky. I liked the clean sound from the 6l6 setting.

The crunch and lead sounds are great, too.

guitarfishbay · October 2014

monquixote said:

guitarfishbay said:

monquixote said:

It's already happened it's just passed most of us old farts by.

In a lot of djent they use modellers as their preferred choice for hyper aggressive gated stuff. They aren't bothered about valve amps.

The Djent tone is achievable with amps - you just need (potentially multiples of) EQ, Drive, Gate. It just is a lot easier to make it happen on a digital unit.

I think the difference seems to be (from my limited knowledge) is that kids into Djent aspire to own an AxeFX not a Marshall or Mesa.

I still don't know if that is true, there are still a lot of younger players aspiring to own valve gear. But I do think that type of tone has influenced the kinds of amps people are buying.

On the sevenstring.org forum there are still a lot of djent kids buying real amps but what is 'in' these days is the tighter ones, so 6505s, EVHs, Mark Series, Diezels etc are still lusted after, whereas older/looser amps are less so. In fact, it feels like everyone there is buying the EVH 50 watter because of how tight the Red channel is, and the fact it is pretty reasonably priced.

People definitely want the Axe, but from what I read a lot of people still dream of having a valve rig.

monquixote · October 2014

I thought this video was really interesting

The guys from Trivium each have a 6 & 7 string version of the same guitar (and one of them plays an Epi) and a Kemper and that's it.

As more bands switch to that way of doing things it's going to be what kids aspire to own.

jpfamps · October 2014

ThePrettyDamned said:

jpfamps;372144" said:
ThePrettyDamned said:

I disagree - yamaha thr, blackstar ID and id core are excellent - and the ID range of gigging amps actually *feel* like amps, something @darcym has alluded to.

I used a Blackstar ID at rehearsal recently, and it sounded so poor even the horn section commented on it (and they normally don't listen to the guitar!).

All I was asking from it was a clean sound with a bit of reverb or delay for mainly Ska rhythm playing, so hardly an exacting task.
I'm a bit surprised really, I've heard a wonderful clean tone with chain being strat - el cap - blackstar ID 2x12 stereo.

Sounded really pretty, and sounded like a valve amp! Maybe you were unlucky. I liked the clean sound from the 6l6 setting.

The crunch and lead sounds are great, too.

Just in case anyone thinks that I'm a valve "snob" the only amp I've played that was as bad was a Marshall DSL (at another rehearsal studio). After failing to get a decent sound from it after about 5 minutes of knob twiddling, I ended up using a Valvestate instead which sounded much better.

guitarfishbay · October 2014

monquixote said:

I thought this video was really interesting

The guys from Trivium each have a 6 & 7 string version of the same guitar (and one of them plays an Epi) and a Kemper and that's it.

As more bands switch to that way of doing things it's going to be what kids aspire to own.

Yes I agree that over time it will change but my perception was that until recently it wasn't quite as widespread as you'd think. Webforums aren't always representative - in fact until recently a lot of my mates hadn't even heard of an Axe FX or a Kemper.

I think the big moment has been/will prove to be Metallica switching to Fractal. I think they are still more influential over the average guitarist's gear choice than most modern metal bands.

What is interesting is that Periphery are back to using cabs on stage, though this is for the benefit of the front row (the band still monitor on in ears) -

I do wonder if their deal with Zilla is anything to do with the decision to start using real cabs again, or if it is purely for front row sound.

Drew_TNBD · October 2014

I currently have a Diezel D-Moll, Axe FX II, and Kemper.

Now... I use my Diezel D-Moll every week at practice, and for all our gigs since February. Before that it was a series of amps; but basically always been playing valve amps live since the inception of the band. Some worked better than others.

I took the Axe FX into the rehearsal room and had it into the FX loop return. I could get decent sounds with a bit of work.

A few weeks back I profiled the preamp section of my Diezel D-Moll with the Kemper. Last week I took the Kemper into the rehearsal room and had that into the FX loop return. I got what basically sounded exactly the same as the amps valve preamp, going into the valve power section.

I'm convinced that for the tones I like, a valve power section is nigh on required. But the preamp section? Valve, digital, probably even solid-state. They'll all work as well as each other I suspect. But given that modern metal tones are predominantly preamp driven... this really does beg the question as to why the valve power section is so important? It is definitely superior to a solid state power section, for me. The speaker reacts a certain way, the tone of the power section has a big impact, and ultimately... for what I'm after it just sounds better.

So back to digital for a sec: I prefer the Kemper to the Axe. It's about speed, ease of use, how quickly I am up and running with the tones I want. It's not that I don't know how to use the Axe, it's that I honestly do not want to invest the time to get it up and running for me. I've had it since April, and still don't have a clearly defined set of patches that do the things I want. With the Kemper, I already have six profiles that nail tones I really like.

RE: The "future". There are only so many ways you can shape a guitar signal in a musically meaningful way. And why be so concerned with the future anyway? One of the hallmarks and strengths of guitar music is it's lineage, it's history, and how you connect to the epic tapestry that has been painted since the first electric guitar. That's how I feel anyway. I don't give a shit if my tone isn't unique. It's the music I care about.

ThePrettyDamned · October 2014

monquixote;372171" said:
I thought this video was really interesting

The guys from Trivium each have a 6 & 7 string version of the same guitar (and one of them plays an Epi) and a Kemper and that's it.

As more bands switch to that way of doing things it's going to be what kids aspire to own.

They sounded immense at download, and is the second time I've heard them on the modeller kit. Both were excellent, flawless performance too (which is, of course, as important as the tone!).

I've also heard them going through 6505 heads, and that too was incredible. Which was better?

Well, tthe modelling kit means more profit per gig and less travel costs.

guitarfishbay · October 2014

Drew_fx said:

RE: The "future". There are only so many ways you can shape a guitar signal in a musically meaningful way. And why be so concerned with the future anyway? One of the hallmarks and strengths of guitar music is it's lineage, it's history, and how you connect to the epic tapestry that has been painted since the first electric guitar. That's how I feel anyway. I don't give a shit if my tone isn't unique. It's the music I care about.

Totally. Music > Tone. Personally I care most about getting a sound that works, not one that is my favourite/super unique.

Drew_fx said:

I'm convinced that for the tones I like, a valve power section is nigh on required. But the preamp section? Valve, digital, probably even solid-state. They'll all work as well as each other I suspect. But given that modern metal tones are predominantly preamp driven... this really does beg the question as to why the valve power section is so important? It is definitely superior to a solid state power section, for me. The speaker reacts a certain way, the tone of the power section has a big impact, and ultimately... for what I'm after it just sounds better.

Honestly the speaker settings on the Axe are absolutely pivotal and I'm almost convinced that it is the only unit that can sound very good with a solid state poweramp due to this. I've ordered a cable that will allow me to connect the H1 to my interface (mini jack to 2x XLR) so making 'in the room' clips will be easier now. I should get a bit of time to record something this weekend, hopefully I won't do anything timeconsuming like breaking the toilet again (this happened last time I tried to pen in 'less essential' recording).

Changing the Q and amount of the LF resonance seems to have a big impact on how the master volume affects the tone at higher levels. Also just how the general tightness of the low end feels.

I know I sent you some clips with OTT settings and the thump if anything was beyond what you'd expect from a real amp... but having tried some 'appropriate' settings it is now feeling great - especially the clean/mid gain amps.

Would it sound good enough to make you switch? Possibly not.

But the difference in feel and tone when you've got the settings 'correct' is far from subtle. The POD HD is now nowhere near the Axe FX through my cab.

My idea for recording DI is to create several captures of my cab, and use the same LF data I'm using for my poweramp tone. In theory it should work really well.

Cirrus · October 2014

It wouldn't make sense to be for front row sound - you just put some smaller monitors on the front of the stage in that case.

I think in terms of the thing that really matters when talking about gear - inspiration - modelling gear is totally fine. If the player digs the tone that's what matters, if they play something worth hearing then it's good enough for me.

Someone above said that new technology doesn't drive new music, I think that for a long time that wasn't true. The two went hand in hand. The creation of the electric guitar amp, PA technology, synthesisers, samplers, sequencers and ultimately DAWs have shown that technological innovators inspire creative innovators to take music somewhere new.

Where modelling tends to differ is simply that they're often harking back to previous sounds. So musicians buy their new toy and instead of hearing sounds that blow their minds the mindset is that they're emulating something old + steeped in tradition. The mindset then becomes a comparison - how well does this modeller emulate THE REAL THING (tm)? Instead the question should always be about how well the gear inspires you to play good music, imo.

The main advantages modellers have as I see it are practical ones - weight, volume and flexibility. So I can see them sticking around. But I think if they were somehow going to change music in the same way as the invention of the drum machine did, it'd have happened by now.

Drew_TNBD · October 2014

I actually think there should be some work done on trying to get the valve poweramp feel without the weight. If that can be cracked - and I honestly don't think it has yet - then that is a pretty huge milestone. Like it or not... valve amps ARE the benchmark, because they sound so good and are responsible for nearly all of the guitar sounds we know and love.

The same can be said when you compare real world grand pianos to 100mb AKAI sampler piano patches and Steinbergs The Grand.

Fretwired · October 2014

John McLaughlin's 2007-2009 rig .. no amps in sight .. there are a number of guys who do this now.

http://www.godinguitars.com/johnmclaughlin_07.htm

guitarfishbay · October 2014

Cirrus said:

The main advantages modellers have as I see it are practical ones - weight, volume and flexibility. So I can see them sticking around. But I think if they were somehow going to change music in the same way as the invention of the drum machine did, it'd have happened by now.

I think what they've allowed people to do is recreate 'studio transitions' in real performance. Some of the stuff I've heard Clarky and Octatonic do with the Axe, specifically the morphing stuff, just isn't practical (or maybe possible in some cases) to recreate using a traditional rig.

It depends on how useful that is to you in your own music.

Personally, I'm using my Axe FX like my old rig - I'm just using delay/eq/drive blocks. This is because I'm performing music I wrote using an oldschool setup.

Now that I've got the Axe, I could start writing music to take advantage of what it can do. I might not, but the option is there. So I think it is part technological capability but part creative desire... so far I've not even tried most of the effects blocks yet. You can control them in pretty cool ways though which aren't possible on traditional gear.

GuyBoden · October 2014

Fretwired said:

John McLaughlin's 2007-2009 rig .. no amps in sight .. there are a number of guys who do this now.

http://www.godinguitars.com/johnmclaughlin_07.htm

Probably the way to go.

Drew_TNBD · October 2014

guitarfishbay said:

Cirrus said:

The main advantages modellers have as I see it are practical ones - weight, volume and flexibility. So I can see them sticking around. But I think if they were somehow going to change music in the same way as the invention of the drum machine did, it'd have happened by now.

I think what they've allowed people to do is recreate 'studio transitions' in real performance.

This is part of the reason why I've been lusting after the Fryette again. I truly truly could nail all of the transitions as they are on the album with that amp. I've not been able to do it as well since; not with the Diezel, not with the JVM, certainly not with the Rockerverb either! Not having that amp has pushed me in a direction with my writing that I never really wanted to go to.

p90fool · October 2014

I think the electric guitar will now always draw upon a narrow pallette of tones, and that generally speaking equipment will reflect this traditionalist tendency.

Yes, some players will occasionally break new ground, but their appeal will probably be limited to other guitar players.

Basically, we're biased, we have a highly specialized interest in the subject, but in general mainstream music production I think producers and writers will just use an "electric guitar sound" when they need one, in the same way they would currently call for a saxophone or piano.

The technology for guitars to make pretty well any noise you can imagine has already existed for decades, but most people don't care, they want itto sound like a guitar and to leave the experimental stuff to keyboards or studio software .

Drew_TNBD · October 2014

p90fool said:

The technology for guitars to make pretty well any noise you can imagine has already existed for decades, but most people don't care, they want itto sound like a guitar and to leave the experimental stuff to keyboards or studio software .

Do you not think this is predominantly because there are not many sounds that actually sound very good on guitar? I can't wait for Shimmer reverb to die a painful death!

PolarityMan · October 2014

I could see noise reduction being a fairly good area for modellers to outshine valve amps...admitedly I use a fairly noisy amp but with high gain there's always that lingering noise issue.

ICBM · October 2014

Drew_fx said:

p90fool said:

The technology for guitars to make pretty well any noise you can imagine has already existed for decades, but most people don't care, they want itto sound like a guitar and to leave the experimental stuff to keyboards or studio software .

Do you not think this is predominantly because there are not many sounds that actually sound very good on guitar? I can't wait for Shimmer reverb to die a painful death!

There's a particularly nasty guitar sound on a current(ish) chart record that drives me nuts every time I hear it… it's *almost* clean, but there's some sort of nasty digital hash all over it.

Or is it just that only people like us notice that?

(And yes, I really do listen to this sort of stuff, so it does matter to me!

)

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Can modelling amps create the future ?

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