Do acoustic IRs work with magnetic pickups? Or better combinations?

thecolourbox · February 15

Hi all, I'm not very clued up on acoustic guitars so please forgive my ignorance.

I've just had my first singing (and guitar) wedding booking for August this year, it's something I want to add to my already established piano playing wedding side hustle so it's nice to actually get some interest. There's a couple of others in the works as well, woop woop.

Just playing a mixture of chilled acoustic style covers of well known songs while guests mill about, probably mix the sets up between using guitar and piano as my accompaniment for interest/variety purposes.

So, it's a good opportunity to look at my acoustic guitar setup and how to get the nicest sound from it. I have a Taylor Big Baby acoustic - bare bones, but sounds entirely adequate for my usual home needs and occasional open mic type scenarios where I add a magnetic pickup (one of these) into a DI into the sound system. I have an acoustic preamp pedal (one of these) which is atrocious and adds noises like hums and hisses etc so usually I do without it.

The Big Baby's smaller dimensions suit me as i'm not a big guy and enjoy small bodied guitars in general. I have an HX Effects which has various acoustic friendly features (compressors, reverb etc) as well as IR loading which I normally have only used with electric guitars as speaker sim.

I largely prefer the sound of the magnetic style pickups to the piezo plinky plonk sound, but I think I should buy a humbucking one really if that's the way to go. However I keep seeing talk of acoustic IRs and wondered whether that might be the way to go?

Google searching brings confusing (to me) info on it, but it appears that IRs are meant to be used with piezo pickups and not magnetic, is that correct? Can IRs be used with magnetic pickups?

Other options I've brainstormed:

Selling my Big Baby to buy something with piezos. It's not in great aesthetic condition but works as it should, so wouldn't get much for it and equivalents with electronics seem a step up in budget. Could be worth it though if I get more bookings as an investment in that side of my business.
Considering the above, it might be better value to keep the guitar I know, and add some kind of IR compatible pickup to it
If lots of bookings start flooding in once I've done some example videos as promo (doubtful though, tbh), then I think I'd love one of the Mexican Fender Acoustasonics but that again is a couple of steps up on my current budget.

Any thoughts on the viability or IRs to make the guitar sound nicer, or other options suggestions or opinions (even if it's to say it doesn't matter lol) then please do shout up as this is an area I know nothing about so have very little preconceptions.

Thanks

TheMadMick · February 15

If you want to try one, I have a Fishman Humbucker sound hole pick up I bought for a guitar that never materialised. Happy to negotiate. Let me know how you feel?

PM for more details.

TTony · February 15

thecolourbox said:

Google searching brings confusing (to me) info on it, but it appears that IRs are meant to be used with piezo pickups and not magnetic, is that correct? Can IRs be used with magnetic pickups?

Yes, and no.

And, even more helpfully, it depends.

I read and read and watched multiple YT videos before I just jumped in, bought some IRs and started experimenting. With hindsight, I really should have saved myself the time of reading and watching, and just bought and experimented.

Generally regarded as quality IRs, with plugins to re-create a number of different acoustic guitars, at $not-much;
https://www.3sigmaaudio.com/

When you buy an IR, it comes with a huge number of files. There are different sets for many different sources - ie different pickup types in your source guitar, including a range of both acoustic and magnetic pickups. Once you've defined the pickup type, there are then a load of varieties of IR to - allegedly - recreate different mics / placements / etc, at different sample rates. To give you an idea, I bought the Guild F5 IR, and it unzips to 1,240 separate files. You only need to load one!

If you PM me an email address, I'll send across the pdf manual for one of the IR sets that I bought, which will explain it clearly.

You load the IR file that you want, depending on the guitar that you're playing into your HX FX (which is how I use them), and can then add any other reverb/EQ/etc that you want to refine the sound further.

Musicwolf · February 15

I need an acoustic sound as part of a band, sometimes 100% acoustic but other times I need to switch between acoustic and electric within the same song. The options that I've tried are;

Yamaha SLG200S 'Silent Guitar' into Helix, either on its own or with another acoustic IR applied - this gives the most authentic acoustic sound

PRS SE Hollowbody II (piezo) into Helix with IR block - next most convincing

Electric guitar (magnetic pickup) into Helix with either and acoustic simulation EQ (modelled on a Boss AC-3) or an acoustic IR or both (either in parallel or series). I've tried this with single coils, humbucker and split humbuckers.

Whilst the SLG was the most convincing the Hollowbody / Piezo was good enough that not needing to change guitars mid set won out against authentic tone. That said, I very recently set up a patch for use with my S2 Semi-hollow which goes

Neck Humbucker (not split) > Tilt EQ (making the tone brighter) > Acoustic Sim > Acoustic IR > Room Rev > Comp and, at home at least, it's good enough for me choose this over the Hollowbody Piezo as I prefer the S2 overall.

As I said, this is part of a band mix, so true acoustic authenticity maybe isn't so important. It's also untested at volume through the PA (that will happen tonight).

Roland · February 15

Most acoustic guitars in a band mix are heavily EQd. I made my own IRs which match my Tele neck pickup to two different Martins. Sounds nice through headphones. With the band I have to EQ it, taking out some of the bass and adding mid range, to fit between bass, keys, voice, and cymbals. The result doesn’t sound so nice in isolation, but works well in the mix. It enables me to play both guitar sounds on songs like Take Your Mana Out without changing instruments. I no longer have to take a fragile acoustic to a gig, and deal with feedback.

thecolourbox · February 15

Thanks all for the info that's really great and nice to learn some new stuff - also nice to know there are pretty cheap options available for me to hopefully upgrade things from my current things to get a proper sound. MadMick and Ttony you will have a pm each shortly

thanks

TTony said:
Generally regarded as quality IRs, with plugins to re-create a number of different acoustic guitars, at $not-much;
https://www.3sigmaaudio.com/

Great tip thanks, good to know that $15 and perhaps a humbucking pickup could be all I need. I'm not as picky with specifics of acoustic sounds as I might be with electric amps, so as they all sound pretty good I reckon any of those would be worth a punt to play with then. I think the Taylor 818 is looking good. Might even be tempted to add their acoustic presets for Helix as well as that's not much more and should give me a starting point as I'm not very knowledgeable about handling acoustics

Musicwolf said:

I need an acoustic sound as part of a band, sometimes 100% acoustic but other times I need to switch between acoustic and electric within the same song. The options that I've tried are;

That's interesting, I'd forgotten about the silent acoustic guitars as I've always fancied a nylon one although I guess that would be less useful in this specific scenario than the steel style one.

Musicwolf said:

As I said, this is part of a band mix, so true acoustic authenticity maybe isn't so important.

Roland said:

Most acoustic guitars in a band mix are heavily EQd.

It will just be me, my guitar and my voice, a sort of more cheerful male Eva Cassidy is what they've said they want, which I think I can manage (working on the cheerful part but song choice will obviously help). So I guess i need something different than somebody in a band mix as it really needs to sound nice in isolation and with my voice over the top, but there's nothing else for it to clash with.

Roland said:

I made my own IRs which match my Tele neck pickup to two different Martins. Sounds nice through headphones.

That's interesting as I was thinking of relying on my thinline tele as a backup instrument in case anything goes wrong on the day, but I'd have just popped it through a clean amp sound, but could be worth trying something like that as it's a nice guitar to play, much nicer than acoustic for my hands and physique.

Roland said:

songs like Take Your Mana Out

Great song that one

ESBlonde · February 15

If you have ultimate control of the sound (your PA and desk) then you can obtain a pretty decent sound from many acoustic guitars and then it becomes a case of can you comfortably play that guitar for a long set. That’s important because if it gets harder you’re playing deteriorates. I have a couple of nice acoustics but often end up with a 90s Epiphone fitted with a fishman blend. I can make it sound really good and its action is low and very playable and doesn’t restrict what I can do including some half decent bends.

If I’m using someone else’s PA, I use a MESA Rosetta DI acoustic pedal for full aural control.

thecolourbox · May 21

Hi all, bit of an update on this one, I purchased a set of the Sigma IR files and their acoustic Presets, as they contained files to be used with the pickup I had (Fishman Neo D Single Coil) and I thought that could do the job. I was using Silk and Steel strings and felt it was sounding weedy with or without the IR attached, I played an open mic and it sounded limp there as well. Very noisy as well, hissy little bastard

I changed strings to some hefty phosphor bronze ones as recommended with the pickup, still noisy and limp. So I took a punt on a cheap Amazon Warehouse Fishman Neo D Humbucker instead of the Single Coil one, putting my electric guitar head on for a moment I assumed I wouldn't get the noise with it and therefore could have it louder etc. Nope, still hissing which reduces if I kill the EQ at 8kHZ and 16kHz but that also takes away some of the guitar sound as well so that's no good either.

So I think I either need to get a piezo pickup and hope for the best, pay to have it installed etc. Or rid of this guitar and replace it with one that contains a piezo pickup. Either way, I feel like I'm going to need to pay a lot of money out just to see if this setup sounds less crap, when it might not?

I don't know if it's my playing style or whether it's just a crap guitar, I've got some flatwound strings arriving later today to try in general but if the normal strings won't work with this then obviously they won't either, but at least I'll know if flats work for me on a practical level for playing when I look into what I need to replace this heap of junk with.

So far i've spent about £25 on the IRs and presets, £8 on the heavy strings, £18 on the flatwounds, £40 on the pickup - basically nearly what the guitar is worth in total (c. £100) and i'm not really any further forward with it all.

TTony · May 21

Did you experiment with the settings of the IR once you loaded it into your Helix?

As well as loading the correct IR file for the source (ie pickup) you’ll be using, you can also adjust various parameters for the IR within the Helix. Some seem - in my experience - to default to very low output settings, so the default sound isn’t good.

thecolourbox · May 21

Yeah, and the EQ all over the place. The IR setting by default is what they've set it to in their own preset, but even playing around with that and the hi cut low cut thing just does the same as the EQ before it. There's just a really horrible strong mid frequency in it which is really fatiguing my ears so I've had to give up again. Tried scooping the EQ on the channel and on the Helix EQ itself and it does go away but unfortunately so does pretty much all of the guitar sound so it's obviously not usable.

It just sounds like how I remember Acoustic Sims on cheap multi effects pedals to sound

AntonHunter · May 21

Have you tried the telecaster through the IR?

thecolourbox · May 21

AntonHunter said:

Have you tried the telecaster through the IR?

Oh yes, I did that as well, I don't think it's going to be an option either, sounded quite plinky plonky again but I'll try again at some point. Think I'd be better just using a clean electric amp sim on the Tele rather than pissing about with the acoustic stuff, i just need to persuade the couple who've booked me to play for them that it's a good idea and then just not take any more bookings on guitar or vocal

TTony · May 21

Which IR file are you using - ie which instrument is being emulated?

Just asking in case I've got the same one that I could try out / compare.

thecolourbox · May 21

Its the Taylor 818 ones I have

Forgot to mention I've tried just using the IRs without a preset as well.

It has sounded very marginally less crap by plugging the pickup straight into the interface rather than into the DI and then interface as I've previously done, but I'm not sure that isn't just the volume effect and also, it still sounded awful, just less awful.

Do the Acoustasonic guitars sound like these?

Roland · May 21

IRs are a translation between the guitar you're playing and the one you want it to sound like. To produce my own acoustic simulation I matched the neck pickup of my Tele to recordings of a Martin D28, and used that to produce my own IR. I did have to hunt around to find a Martin recording which hadn't been too processed. Even with the right IR I have to EQ the signal. That's because an acoustic guitar sound has to be EQd for the circumstance. In my case, playing in a band, that's taking out some of the lower end body sound, and adding top end to cut through the mix.

thecolourbox · May 21

Yeah I understand they need to be EQd, but in this case I have been having to take out the low end as it's too boomy, take out the top end because of the hissy noise, and then take out the mid as well because of the fatiguing mid frequency sound that was killing my ears! Didn't leave me with a lot

TTony · May 21

Here's a bit of experimentation.

Each of the 3Sigma IR files has a huge number of variations, and they can sound quite different. Once you choose which pickup source you're using, there are multiple (I've got ~25) variations of the same source and modelled guitar.

With apologies for the sloppy playing, I recorded a quick bit of guitar and then applied 3 of the available IRs from my Taylor 614 set, so the clip below has 4 separate pieces.

Source, and part1 of the track, is a self-build with the Graphtech piezo system, recorded completely raw (ie no EQ, etc).
Parts2, 3 & 4 are then using 3 randomly chosen of the 614 piezo-source IR options, applied to the source, again completely raw.

They sound fairly different, even in mp3 format. I've a funny feeling you're going to say "been there, tried that", but have you tried all the variations in your IR files?

thecolourbox · May 21

To be honest if my guitar sounded even as good as that on the raw piezo recording, it would be a million times better than what I've got.

TTony · May 21

thecolourbox said:

To be honest if my guitar sounded even as good as that on the raw piezo recording, it would be a million times better than what I've got.

I wonder if the problem is with the output rather than the input?

Guitar plugged into interface into StudioOne running on MacBook. IRs applied via Helix Native running in the DAW. Then listened through (OK but nothing special) monitoring headphones via the interface.

Can you test listen with a similarly simple set-up (ie no pre-amp pedals, no sound system, etc) and see if it's any better?

thecolourbox · May 21

That is the same set up basically, pickup into interface into Cubase on Windows PC.

thecolourbox · 10:20AM

Had a couple of days with the flat wound strings, I don't know if I've just got a bad set or whether they are all the same for this type of string, but I'm not hearing anything i like and the feel is terrible, like slightly rough strings that have been on an old guitar for a few years too long.

For the purposes of weighing up my options (ie new instrument vs getting this one up to scratch), am I right in assuming that the Silk and Steel strings will work fine with a piezo pickup? They don't work that well with the magnetic ones for me but even with my rubbish grasp of physics I can understand why. But assuming that piezos just work on vibrations, it should be fine? Just probably a bit quieter than normal strings, given that I play quite softly and the strings themselves are quieter and woolly sounding.

Hoping then that focussing the evaluations on what to do to get the IR thing working well for me, to be based on a piezo equipped guitar with Silk & Steel strings will help to narrow down my options to some achievable things to get an adequate tone

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Do acoustic IRs work with magnetic pickups? Or better combinations?

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