Amp suggestions for hard rock/metal in pubs

Nerine · July 2015

Jesus. What a faff.

Does the Jubilee have a loop? Yes?

Put an EQ pedal in the loop. Up the bass, scoop the mids a little. Boost the front end.

Done.

Saying a Jubilee can't do heavy stuff is ridiculous.

Most amps can if you arrange the gear around them accordingly.

chrishill901 · July 2015

Nerine said:

Jesus. What a faff.

Does the Jubilee have a loop? Yes?

Put an EQ pedal in the loop. Up the bass, scoop the mids a little. Boost the front end.

Done.

Saying a Jubilee can't do heavy stuff is ridiculous.

Most amps can if you arrange the gear around them accordingly.

Jesus.

I didn't realise it was so easy to coax any tone out of any amp. Why are there so many amps out there if one is capable of doing it all?

I've boosted the front end.

Done.

The gain is there.

As I've already mentioned though, it's not the character I'm looking for. I don't want a scooped mid tone, and if I boost the bass the 1x12 cab starts to sound flubby. I'm after something different. I'm into Tremonti and what is typically more a U.S. rectifier type tone. I made that quite clear. I'm looking for something different to the jubilee, different to a Marshall. Not just a souped up Marshall. If I wanted that type of tone, we wouldn't be having this discussion. And the jubilee loop is awful.

IanSavage · July 2015

I've recently come into a Peavey XXX combo which sounds like it ticks your boxes; a SMIDGE over 20kg (51lb, apparently) but worth the couple of extra kilos.

Nerine · July 2015

chrishill901;704557" said:
Nerine said:

Jesus. What a faff.

Does the Jubilee have a loop? Yes?

Put an EQ pedal in the loop. Up the bass, scoop the mids a little. Boost the front end.

Done.

Saying a Jubilee can't do heavy stuff is ridiculous.

Most amps can if you arrange the gear around them accordingly.

Jesus.

I didn't realise it was so easy to coax any tone out of any amp. Why are there so many amps out there if one is capable of doing it all?

I've boosted the front end.

Done.

The gain is there.

As I've already mentioned though, it's not the character I'm looking for. I don't want a scooped mid tone, and if I boost the bass the 1x12 cab starts to sound flubby.

I'm after something different. I'm into Tremonti and what is typically more a U.S. rectifier type tone. I made that quite clear. I'm looking for something different to the jubilee, different to a Marshall. Not just a souped up Marshall. If I wanted that type of tone, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

And the jubilee loop is awful.

Well the only way to get a rectifier type tone, is with... A rectifier.
Or at least something very close.
Not only that, you've got wattage against you.
For a modern rock/metal tone, headroom is essential.

Yes there are lots of amps.

But that's because people don't seem capable of making them PART of their sound, rather than the ENTIRETY of their sound. Not only that, a VAST amount of amplifiers are pretty much derivatives of the same thing or something that has gone before.
Even a Fender Twin with a few pedals can sound like the earth is breaking.

Take a rectifier for example, before the reborn ones, which I haven't tried, you'd at least need to boost the front end a bit to gain some edge and cut without having the wrap the treble and presence all the way round resulting in harshness. They're also notoriously dark, and quite loose and fuzzy. So whilst, yes, the essence of the core sound is there, you'll still need to add to it to get closer.

I believe Tremonti was using Bogner Uberschalls at one point blended with a Rectifier if memory serves. He also was running the mids on the rectifier in his rig at basically 0. So you were basically hearing a very Marshall esque midrange. Admittedly this was probably more from the Alter Bridge period, but there was a rig rundown on Premier Guitar or something.

And when I say scoop the mids a little, I don't mean carve a sodding great smiley face.

You'd be better off getting a parametric EQ as they're far more usable and less limiting, and then maybe adding an extension cab for added depth.

Lastly, a jubilee is from the same lineage basically as a JCM800. I have a JCM800. You can get some seriously heavy sounds out of it if you just set it to do them and give it a nudge with a pedal here and there.

If your combo speaker is farting out, why are you trying to occupy the bass frequencies so much? Doesn't your bass player do that?

If you took the same approach with something such as an Uberschall or Rectifier, you'd end up with a floppy mess.

If you want something with gain, that's a bit dark, loose, fuzzy, whatever, maybe a Dark Terror or Dark Orange in general will be fitting.

I just think the Jube is a better all round amp than most that have been mentioned in this thread, unless you actually go for something that has more power and a larger cab.

I also think a lot of the suggestions are totally UNsuited to what you are trying to achieve.

Nerine · July 2015

Also, I think you'll find the Jet City's and the Iron Heart to be very Marshally in character.

I've used the IH60 and JCA100HDM on numerous occasions, and neither sounded as aggressive as a boosted and properly EQ'd 800. Laney sounded harsher and the JCA had less aggressive mids but a smoother top end.

Also you dismissed the Dark Oranges.

I'm not sure why?

Nerine · July 2015

ALSO

you said 20w should be ample as you aren't able to turn the Marshall up that loud. If you go for less wattage you'll then be introducing a lot of sag and colour from the power section, which generally is seen as an undesirable when trying to obtain a tight, percussive, chunky tone.

Which basically means you're hamstringing yourself before you start...

Contrary to what you may believe, barely any modern amps sound great when the volume is on 10. In fact, most of them will sound like a hot mess. *

*Obvious NMV amps excluded.

You also said you don't want fizz. That's pretty much what a Rectifier produces. But it happens to work.

Lastly, If a Rectifier sounded so great with the masters wound up, I don't think they would have bothered with the 150W Triple Rectifier, would they.

Do amps sound better louder? Yes of course, but don't forget that's also the realms of psychoacoustic phenomena which is an entirely different kettle of fish.

Nerine · July 2015

It seems as though you are almost setting yourself a series of parameters that are going to nearly result in the unobtainable, but if you find something that works, power to ya.

chrishill901 · July 2015

...have a wisdom

chrishill901 · July 2015

Firstly, I appreciate the depth of your response, you certainly know your stuff.

I agree with you that things can be done to the jubilee to make it sound more like what I'm after, but as you point out I have quite a limiting set of parameters. Firstly I don't have the money for an eq pedal, extension cab etc as suggested as all of my budget is in the jubilee itself. Secondly I am looking to keep bulk and weight down. I want to keep using a 1x12. I suspect with a 4x12 and a boost pedal id be in tonal heaven, but I'm limited to either a boxy sounding 1x12 with (in my opinion) a very fatiguing v30 (and this is one of the smallest 1x12 amps I've seen) or to cash in and get a different amp that can do what I'm after out of the box, which is what I was asking for suggestions for. I suspect the amp that fits all of my requirements, as you quite rightly pointed out, does not exist.

You are right, the key to the modern tone is headroom, the key to headroom is whacking big power sections, and the key to those is massive transformers and heavy stuff. I stated the wattage requirement quite low for practicality reasons, not tonal ones. I can't have a 100w amp as it will weigh too much for my requirement. Of course sag and colouring will be part of whatever amp I end up getting because of this, but I have to accept that.

I think my terminology is reversed to yours. What you describe as fizz I'd say is fuzz, and what you say is fuzz id call fizz, but your way is probably more accurate. I don't like those 'fuzzy' orange tones you describe, but have nothing against the fizz of a rectifier. We'll never win here while my abjectives are so poor though, so I'll simplify it. To me there is a character I look for in an amp that is part of the preamp. I can tell from even quiet volumes whether I like it. Theres a smooth sizzle I like. I heard a stoneham amp in the flesh and it was present there, I found the bugera 333xl to have it, the blackstar ht50 did too. They all had loads of gain and sizzle, but it was smooth and not brittle. I find marshalls brittle, but this doesn't mean I don't like a Marshall voiced amp, I just don't like the tonal quality of the gain on a Marshall itself. Even I'm confused now though.

Now I think of it, the bugera (which I believe is a Peavey XXX) was ideal. It had lots of smooth overdrive and tonally was what Im after. Just too heavy in weight.

The jubilee sits on the fence between smooth and brittle, I do like the tone. The limiting factor for me here is not the jubilee series but rather the 2554 itself and my budget. If I had a 2550 head and a 4x12 I probably wouldn't be complaining about tone... Just weight! Also, my combo speaker isn't farting out, it is smooth and responsive... I was saying it would fart out if I put and eq in the loop with the bass boosted though as you suggested.

I doubt the 'perfect amp' is out there; I have suspected for a long time that I would be more suited to an axe-fx but then that opens up its own can of worms on how to amplify it. I am convinced though, that there is something more suited to me than the jubilee. Not to say the jubilee isn't brilliant and suited well, but I think there is something that ticks a few more of my boxes than the jubilee does. While my bad back persists I will be dreaming of 100w, lightweight lunch box valve heads and other such scientific impossibilities along with a nice neo loaded 1x12 that sounds like a 4x12. Oh if only...

Nerine · July 2015

Well, it seems you definitely know what you want, which is a good start.

My only advice really would be to take a day and head to a couple of stores and try some stuff out.

Typically, I'm not a fan of Orange amps. To me, they're a bit wooly and all that, but I only ever read positive stuff about the Dark Series. They're certainly geared more towards what you want to do than typical Oranges. Also, they're gainy, and I believe a little tighter and clearer than most Oranges.

As I said, I've mucked around with Laneys and Jet City's at the studio, and to me they seem to be a variation on that Marshall flavour. They have their own thing going on though. The JC had a good amount of low end, but it was the 100w with depth mod. The Laney seemed to be like a Marshall really but with a bit of a nasty midrange that always seemed to be present no matter how you dialled it.

Having said all that, the room has changed a lot since then and has now got loads of panelling and treatment up so I may feel different about them nowadays..

In any case, if you're financing it with the Jube, I think you shouldn't be short of potential buyers.
I think my main point of contention was that you're sitting on a real great amp that in a lot of circles is pretty highly sought after, and it'd be a shame to pass it up.

Don't get me wrong, I've only ever played through one once or twice, but I know I've always really liked them. And I also know that it's easily possible to make a similar amp such as an 800 sound utterly devastating. So I'm kinda putting two and two together in that respect.

I think I always feel slightly jaded at the gear merry go round too. I've been there and done it and realised that it's mostly utterly pointless.

It's understandable that you get fed up and bored with a certain sound, but there are only really so many ways a distorted electric can sound like. After that, it's variations on a theme, and that's usually when you hit Bogner, Friedman, Soldano, Diezel, Boogie etc.

I've read that the loops on Jubilees aren't particularly great, but if you can pick up a second hand GE-7 or similar for £30-40 or so, it might be worth just trying it to see what happens. It'd certainly be worth keeping the Marshall over a new Chinese built thing that will basically be worth tuppence after you've bought it...

All I'm saying is explore the options first. Sometimes the solutions are a lot simpler than they initially seem.

Good luck!

ICBM · July 2015

A bit of technical info which may be useful...

The Jubilee is *not* like a classic Marshall or any previous model except the channel-switching JCM800s. It's not even similar to the MV-model 800s.

The Jubilee gets all its distortion below the full-on power stage overdrive from solid-state diode clipping, both in the crunch and lead modes. The *gain* is still valve, but the *distortion* is solid state (gain and distortion aren't the same thing).

Not only that, the circuit is completely different from the classic models - the tone stack is very different, is later in the circuit (after the FX loop) and is not driven by the normal cathode follower.

The FX loop is very poorly designed and has a very high impedance send, which makes it very prone to tone suck.

Why these amps are so rated, or why they even sound as good as they do, is a complete mystery in fact! It seems to be a sort of happy accident. I actually don't think solid-state distortion is inherently a bad thing, but it's still true that it doesn't sound the same as valve distortion.

The Jet City amps are all-valve, if it matters.

drwiddly · July 2015

I think if you're after a different set of tones and as light a rig as possible, you really need to think about going digital and SS. I appreciate that your only budget is the Jubilee and that limits things a bit but there are a few options.
If money were no object, I'd suggest you try a Kemper, either the powered version or with a Matrix power amp and one of the Matrix neo cabs. That's a really light and powerful rig but well out of your budget. The same applies to the Axe FX but even more so!
You could try Line 6 HD or Digitech GSP1101 (very underrated piece of kit IMO) with a Rocktron or Carvin power amp and maybe replace the V30 in your cab with a Classic Lead 80 or Creamback. It will be heavier but not by that much and doable within your budget. If you don't fancy digital or need built in FX, you could try a preamp like a Marshall JMP, ADA MP1, Sansamp PSA or one of the AMT pedal ones?

chrishill901 · July 2015

I think I have accepted the gear merry go round! ICBM's technical post above may explain why I find the jubilee somewhat lacking. Its a really nice amp but I for one don't hold jubilee with the same esteem as others. I prefer a JCM800 boosted to be honest.

I suppose on reflection im not necessarily set specifically on a particular sound over another and I participate in the gear merry go round for a reason. I'm only 26, I started out with a valvetronix so I never had that experience of living through the 70s/80s/90s when all of the great defining amps came out. I suppose im always chopping and changing as its my way of experiencing new tones.

Ultimately @drwiddly is right and digital is probably the best for me. I did have a Kemper but I could only afford a PA speaker to play it through and i didnt like how it felt. Amazing piece of kit though. If I was a professional musician and did functions etc, I would definitely save for an Axe-FX and go down that route, but im not. I play in an originals band and a large part of me actually wants to go through loads of amps in search of my own tone. I have tone chased for a long time (im about to contradict the basis of this thread...) and on occassion I have practically hit the nail on the head with the tone I am looking for; I am a huge Slash fan and the jubilee (as well as my old 800) definitely ticked that box. But once I nailed that tone I found myself wanting more. I thought I wanted to sound like Slash but I don't, I want to sound like me. But I don't actually know what I want to sound like... I need to discover that for myself, and for me I think the best, and most satisfying way to do this is to buy and sell amps. My wife rolls her eyes every 6 months when I tell her that the amp that 6 months ago was 'perfect' is now for sale, but it is all part of tonally 'finding myself'

I know the logical thing would actually be an axefx or a Kemper as I could try any amp I want, but my budget won't stretch as I don't make any money from music and don't have any to add to the pot. I also worry for myself if I end up getting something that can do it all as i'll have nowhere to go from there!

My current circumstances impose limitations that have influenced the choice of amps this time round; weight and portability being a main factor. With the fact that even if I love it it will most likely be on here for sale in 6 months time I have decided to go for what seems to be the least popular option in this thread and I have just bought a Laney Ironheart combo. I got a deal on one brand new saving me £150, and I bought it from one of the box shifters with free returns if you think its crap, so it may not last 5 minutes anyway. It seemed like the logical choice given the free returns; If I don't like it I will definitely be buying a Jet City and some wire cutters... (only joking, I own wirecutters)

I will let you know what I think when I test it in anger on Thursday, although even at stupidly low house volumes I think it sounds pretty good. I decided on that for a few reasons.

1. Im listening to a lot of tight modern tones lately, but with regard to the above I am thinking that what I am listening to and what I want may be different. From trying a few amps out at shops I still find myself leaning more toward the british flavour amp. The Ironheart gives me that british sound but with a good helping of gain. Throw in a pre-boost, reverb, fairly pristine clean channel, not to mention DI out, switchable FX level and a 4 button switch and its a lot for the money.

2. Jack Thammarat.

3. At 20kg with two carry handles it is ideal. A very reasonable weight made much more manageable but spreading it over two handles. My pedalboard will fit on top meaning from car to venue will only be one trip!

4. DI out. I was looking at getting a Palmer DI with whatever amp I got as our drummer has got himself an in ear monitoring system and wants a feed. The DI out negates the need for that

5. The three channels have me covered. I can set the rhythm tone as my main tone and the lead with a higher volume to give me a solo boost - I know I could just throw a boost in the loop as I have in the past, but my lead tone will now have its own EQ section. It may or may not be useful but something I've not experimented with before so I'm keen to try out.

6. A very odd one but I have read that (and seen a video) that the AUX in on the Ironheart is basically a second fx return, so I could get something like an AMT R2 and an AB box and I'd have another channel to the amp. I probably wouldnt but I like the idea of being able to try a few different flavours out without having to change amp as I have read from a number of sources that it has a very good power section for different preamps - I know many amps do, but coming from a Jubilee where the loop is before the tone controls it hasnt been an option for me up to now. If I do decide to go digital with pre and power amps I'll be able to get an idea of a good preamp before having to buy a power amp too.

7. Most importantly I got £150 off. Can't argue with that.

I imagine most of you are face palming right now but I think the Ironhearts from demos sound pretty good. My only reservation is the HH speaker, but with savings like that I could pop in a better speaker. I could even go neo and save even more weight!

drwiddly · July 2015

Sounds like the Ironheart is ticking a lot of boxes for you. Enjoy!

chrishill901 · July 2015

Just tried it with the band for 20 mins and I'm actually impressed. I like it. I didn't really play with the eq much and find the sweet spot but I could tell it definitely had some of that je ne sais quoi that I was looking for. Out of the box it sounded very modern van halen to me, but with less sizzle. It had that character I like where it has girth and individual strings sound powerful without being able to tell how much gain is dialed in.

It definitely suffered from the speaker not being broken in, and I've read that it is a dog of a speaker but it sounded perfectly usable to me. There was certainly something slightly fatiquing about the top end so maybe if that doesn't smooth out over time I may pop a different speaker in, but otherwise I'm suitably impressed for £435 with a 5 year warranty.

The band have got a sweepstake on how long I'll keep this one. If I keep it longer than they think then I'll get some money!

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Amp suggestions for hard rock/metal in pubs

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