Acoustic tone “opening up”

SixStringSage

With solid wood acoustic guitars it’s often spoken about their tones opening up or breaking in as they get played. I’ve often wondered, does this happen as a result of playing or conditions? Because we try to keep them at particular temperatures and humidity, so if a new acoustic is kept in a case will that prevent or slow down this change in tone, or it happens regardless because the wood is getting older?

in other words, will acoustic guitars age differently tonally if kept in a case vs being out in the open, if they’re kept in similar temp/humidity ranges?

MikeP

Probably. But possibly not. 

drofluf

Don’t think that it’s the wood aging that helps them open up but the flexing/vibration from playing 

SixStringSage

drofluf said:

Don’t think that it’s the wood aging that helps them open up but the flexing/vibration from playing 

This would make sense!

Revolutions

Nope. Also basically impossible to test in any objective way.

and even if two completely identical guitars were stored in different environments & ended up with measurably different tone, you’ve still got the problem of having human ears.

see also: https://www.science.org/content/article/million-dollar-strads-fall-modern-violins-blind-sound-check

SixStringSage

Revolutions said:

Nope. Also basically impossible to test in any objective way.

and even if two completely identical guitars were stored in different environments & ended up with measurably different tone, you’ve still got the problem of having human ears.

see also: https://www.science.org/content/article/million-dollar-strads-fall-modern-violins-blind-sound-check

I’m not sure I understand your comment. I’m not asking or suggesting that we can measurably influence what the tone does - I’m asking if the tone changes more or less from being in its case or open to the elements (so to speak). Sure it’s subjective, but that’s fine, I’m after people’s experiences. 

ICBM

drofluf said:

Don’t think that it’s the wood aging that helps them open up but the flexing/vibration from playing 

I think it's both, plus the vibration they pick up from their surroundings if the strings can move freely.

Being in a closed case with a pad against the strings will slow the process as much as possible. Leaving it out on a stand or a hanger and playing it a lot will speed it up.

Revolutions said:

and even if two completely identical guitars were stored in different environments & ended up with measurably different tone, you’ve still got the problem of having human ears.

No two wooden guitars are ever completely identical, so that adds another variable.

Revolutions

SixStringSage said:

Revolutions said:

Nope. Also basically impossible to test in any objective way.

and even if two completely identical guitars were stored in different environments & ended up with measurably different tone, you’ve still got the problem of having human ears.

see also: https://www.science.org/content/article/million-dollar-strads-fall-modern-violins-blind-sound-check

I’m not sure I understand your comment. I’m not asking or suggesting that we can measurably influence what the tone does - I’m asking if the tone changes more or less from being in its case or open to the elements (so to speak). Sure it’s subjective, but that’s fine, I’m after people’s experiences. 

What I meant was: you’ll never know.

Just like new speakers: change from burn-in is far more likely to be your senses getting used to the sound.

sure, leaving your guitar out in the open for 20 years will mean the wood warps/shrinks in a different way than if it lived in the case. Would it sound different? Who knows. The only truth is that if you hear a difference based on your memory of how your guitar used to sound, your brain is playing tricks on you.

Record your guitar now & repeat again in 20 years with the same equipment. If nothing significant changes on the guitar, neither will the sound.

Or you could strip the lacquer to let the wood breathe. That’s when the real tone escapes.

SixStringSage

Revolutions said:

SixStringSage said:

Revolutions said:

Nope. Also basically impossible to test in any objective way.

and even if two completely identical guitars were stored in different environments & ended up with measurably different tone, you’ve still got the problem of having human ears.

see also: https://www.science.org/content/article/million-dollar-strads-fall-modern-violins-blind-sound-check

I’m not sure I understand your comment. I’m not asking or suggesting that we can measurably influence what the tone does - I’m asking if the tone changes more or less from being in its case or open to the elements (so to speak). Sure it’s subjective, but that’s fine, I’m after people’s experiences. 

What I meant was: you’ll never know.

Just like new speakers: change from burn-in is far more likely to be your senses getting used to the sound.

sure, leaving your guitar out in the open for 20 years will mean the wood warps/shrinks in a different way than if it lived in the case. Would it sound different? Who knows. The only truth is that if you hear a difference based on your memory of how your guitar used to sound, your brain is playing tricks on you.

Record your guitar now & repeat again in 20 years with the same equipment. If nothing significant changes on the guitar, neither will the sound.

Or you could strip the lacquer to let the wood breathe. That’s when the real tone escapes.

Gotcha, thanks 

Revolutions

The good news is that you can buy an acoustic purely on how it it sounds & feels today with no ragrets  

SixStringSage

Revolutions said:

The good news is that you can buy an acoustic purely on how it it sounds & feels today with no ragrets  

Yep! Which is sort of a relief because you fall in love with how they sound at the time of purchase 

crunchman

When this came up before, I did find an academic paper on wood aging.  The samples they used were over a longer time scale, using samples from beams that were hundreds of years old, but there were definite structural changes in the wood over time.  I can't remember all the details as it was a few years ago, but the old wood was different to new wood.  How much that happens over shorted time scales I don't know.

Whatever the cause, the sound of a guitar does change over time.  In my experience, brand new guitars tend to sound brash with a zing to the top end.  The worst of that tends to go quite quickly - in 6 months or so.  They continue to change after that, but it's a slower process.

Tannin

Guitars certainly do change as they age. Very little work has been done to measure this in a scientific way, largely because it is so immediately obvious to the luthier. Playing a new guitar in is, for the luthier, as much a part of making it as trimming the frets or polishing the lacquer. By far the biggest change takes place in the first few hours. Changes get small and slower after that.

As to what causes the changes, I don't think we really know. There are certainly chemical changes to timber over time - they happen regardless of whether we are talking about a guitar or a fencepost. But the supposition is that actually playing a guitar makes the sound change. (Or using one of those electronic gadgets as a substitute.) 

On the whole, it's probably better to keep a guitar in its case. It will change more slowly (less fluctuation in temperature and humidity, no exposure to UV light) but that is no bad thing if we suppose (as seems reasonable) that on balance the changes to it from simply sitting around in a room somewhere are as or more likely to be destructive rather than beneficial. (Leave it sitting in a room for long enough - say a few centuries - and it will eventually be nothing more than expensive firewood.) 

As for playing it - well, that's what they are for! If playing improves it (which it may well do) great! And if it doesn't, play it anyway! In the end a guitar is just a tool to make noises with. Use it to make noises!

(Despite my "keep it in the case" advice above, I leave mine out on stands. They are easier to get at and get played more often that way, and I like to see them. Every now and then my eye catches on one or another of the magnificent timbers they are made from and that is a joy in itself. Will that reduce their longevity? Sure it will, a bit, but I'll be pushing up the daisies long, long before that becomes a serious issue, so I don't much care.)

Devil#20

On the basis that if you don't use an amp for a good long while it sounds shit when you dig it out again. It's only when it's had a few hours of playing through again that it starts to sound good again. Must be down to the flexing of the speaker cone. I'd say the same should also apply to an acoustic guitar. It's the same as a speaker cone but made of a thin sheet of wood. It must be the same physics going on at molecular level. 

edit. If there is any ageing thing to this postulate then leaving the guitar out will do that because it will resonate to the sounds around it. I have to remove any acoustic guitars in the room when I play anything on my hifi because it annoys me that they insist on singing along to whatever I'm listening to and I can hear them superimposed on everything. 

BillDL

I've read about people hanging their acoustic guitars in a room and subjecting them to loud harmonised frequencies of sound when they aren't playing them in the belief that the sympathetic vibrations it causes in the guitar will keep the wood from "tightening up" again as they suggest happens if a guitar is left unplayed for long periods.  I've even heard it said that if you use sound frequencies that are in harmony with the fundamental frequency of the guitar that it will make it more tuneful, for wont of a better word.  Where that latter part of the whole exercise breaks down is that although the guitar has a fundamental frequency at which it will begin to vibrate in sympathy with particular frequencies of external sound, that's not going to make the guitar vibrate more tunefully when you play notes that are dissonant with that fundamental frequency, just as trying to bounce at the wrong tempo on a trampoline or a diving board doesn't work very well.

As wood ages the natural oils in it eventually crystallise and harden.  People refer to different types of wood commonly used for guitar soundboards as being "fast" or "slow", in other words how immediately they react to the vibrations from the plucked string through the bridge.  I can understand that aged wood might become "faster" because it's "drier" and more responsive.  Clearly that's what guitar makers like Yamaha have been experimenting with for a number of years now in their A.R.E. line of acoustics (Acoustic Resonance Enhancement).

I can also understand that a thin wooden soundboard that has been vibrated regularly and a lot over a long period of time will probably be more flexible than one that hasn't.  Mix the two together and you have a drier but more flexible soundboard than when the wood was new and unvibrated. 

ESBlonde

I’ve felt like I noticed guitars left untouched for months seem to open up ‘again’ when I start playing them again. All very subjective and highly subjective. Your opinion will likely vary.

BigPaulie

Nobody knows for sure.

Guitars do change with age, but you knew that.

Some say it's the formulation of crystals in the sugars/oils/sap in the woods: a physical change in the woods'  molecular structures.

Some say it's the loosening of the wood due to the accumulated effect of hundreds or thousands of hours of vibrating as a result of playing.

Some think that torrefaction, or whatever proprietary equivalent noun you prefer to use, accelerates this process.

Some say it's because by the time you've spent a decade with a guitar your ears have changed significantly and have a subjectively different appreciation of the guitar's sonic profile.

The truth is probably a combination of all the above, and some other factors I haven't mentioned.

ToneControl

SixStringSage said:

With solid wood acoustic guitars it’s often spoken about their tones opening up or breaking in as they get played. I’ve often wondered, does this happen as a result of playing or conditions? Because we try to keep them at particular temperatures and humidity, so if a new acoustic is kept in a case will that prevent or slow down this change in tone, or it happens regardless because the wood is getting older?

in other words, will acoustic guitars age differently tonally if kept in a case vs being out in the open, if they’re kept in similar temp/humidity ranges?

it's vibrations that do it. Possibly other stuff too.
A tone rite will do it in a day or two, I have done this many times, it's very noticeable

Tannin

One of these days I'm going to say "Bugger it!" and buy a Tone-rite. I mean people like @ToneControl and @thomasross20 are not fools, if they think there is something in it, that's a road I have to go down for myself one day. 

And given that I'm undoubtedly going to go there one day, why not just short-cut history and order one today?

(It is logic like this that drives sensible people like my accountant, my bank manager, and most of all Mrs Tannin completely nuts.)

drofluf

Tannin said:

One of these days I'm going to say "Bugger it!" and buy a Tone-rite. I mean people like @ToneControl and @thomasross20 are not fools, if they think there is something in it, that's a road I have to go down for myself one day. 

And given that I'm undoubtedly going to go there one day, why not just short-cut history and order one today?

(It is logic like this that drives sensible people like my accountant, my bank manager, and most of all Mrs Tannin completely nuts.)

Found this on eBay https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/166508088125?chn=ps&_ul=GB&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&amdata=enc%3A1tyVVoY34SoWxCWbyXROTjg74&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-134428-41853-0&mkcid=2&mkscid=101&itemid=166508088125&targetid=1816459696765&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=1006993&poi=&campaignid=19097601017&mkgroupid=152525099668&rlsatarget=pla-1816459696765&abcId=9303862&merchantid=109952882&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAAD_Lr1ewks_tHaYfGWbmc3yM9-KVR&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI75L7iYiohQMV3ZdQBh2uzwRZEAQYAiABEgJdSfD_BwE

It's probably rubbish but at a tenth the price of a ToneRite may be worth a punt?

thomasross20

Thanks yeah, definitely helped on ALL of mine. Just speeds things up, tried different settings and left it on for DAYS. Apparently doesn't work on all guitars.