What exactly is Jeremy Corbyn's plan?

Evilmags · August 2016

What is a credible alternative to a totally non credible leader? A strategy that consists of

a) harassing moderate MP´s until they resign, are deselected or shut up. The "Red Tory" strategy ultimately failed in Scotland and the harassment endured by anyone who publicly disagreed is why the SNP are losing support. It is frankly a revolting form of behavior and the increased security details on female labour MPs says more about Corbyn than a million words could. He is nasty and using strategy straight out of the far left handbook.

b) Handing Teresa May the next election. If you don´t like Tories why on earth would you wish to give them a 100 seat majority. For at least two more terms. If you are deluded enough not to believe that, just watch PMs question time. She eviscerates him.

c) giving hope to idiots like Class War and the SWP. They are a tiny and vocal minority who need to be put back in their box.

scrumhalf · August 2016

The FTPA is an Act of Parliament, they can be amended, revoked or have the provisions suspended by another Act of Parliament, unless things have really changed.

I've never liked the FTPA, I wouldn't be upset to see it go.

Evilmags · August 2016

If I was Teresa I'd hold on and let them implode more. What Corbyn does not seem to get is that UKIP can target his weakest seats and are likely to do a deal with the Tories, so they don't take votes in Tory shires and Tories don't stop UKIP killing labour in the north. UKIP will spend their money in Labour seats, not Tory ones. Micheal Foot risks looking like am electoral giant. And the fact that Corbynistas spend their lives in echo chambers will make 1984 look mild.

Heartfeltdawn · August 2016

randella said:
It's like watching a car crash in slow-motion.

My only remaining hope was that Corbyn's re-elected leader (pretty much a done deal), May calls a snap election, Labour gets pummelled into next week, Corbyn steps down and the rebuilding process starts there. Now I read that he has no intention whatsoever of resigning in the face of a general election defeat (whether now or in 2020), despite McDonnell's assertions to the contrary, and despite the fact that every single indicator is suggesting sizeable defeat to be the most likely outcome.

So what does that say? It tells me that he's either a narcissistic liar or is suffering industrial-scale delusions of his own popularity. I'm finding it harder and harder to believe that either him or his ardent followers have any intention of Labour being elected to government, instead preferring the morally-pure and responsibility-free notion of permanent and ineffectual protest in 'opposition'.

There would be no political gain for the Conservative party in calling a snap election and I suspect there are many who would feel that the electorate are a bit 'elected out'. Two referendums and a GE in a short space of time...

Off into town now for the grand Corbyn speech.

UnclePsychosis · August 2016

Evilmags said:

The "Red Tory" strategy ultimately failed in Scotland and the harassment endured by anyone who publicly disagreed is why the SNP are losing support.

We have a phrase in Scotland that seems appropriate: You fuckin' what, pal?

The Labour Party are even more fucked in Scotland than they are in the rest of the country, and believe me the "Red Tory" strategy from the nationalists is a huge part of that. I don't vote SNP but the idea that they are "losing support" is hilarious. They have 56 MPs and a majority in the Scottish parliament. Again. Every single other party in the UK would kill for their polling figures.

ICBM · August 2016

scrumhalf said:

The FTPA is an Act of Parliament, they can be amended, revoked or have the provisions suspended by another Act of Parliament, unless things have really changed.

I've never liked the FTPA, I wouldn't be upset to see it go.

In theory, yes. In practice repealing it would probably fail, because it is a genuine improvement - to prevent the sitting government from rigging the timing for its own electoral advantage, and to give more protection to narrow-majority and minority governments so they can actually get things done without having to worry about an election being sprung on them.

One of the best things the Coalition did.

Philly_Q · August 2016

Veering a little off topic, a friend of mine is a leading light in the Brighton & Hove District Labour group, which got in the news recently due to a "Momentum takeover". She's a big Corbyn supporter, quite often shares a platform with him and/or McDonnell. I'm going to her 50th birthday party later this year, I'm kind of dreading who I might get to meet there....

Evilmags · August 2016

UnclePsychosis said:

Evilmags said:

The "Red Tory" strategy ultimately failed in Scotland and the harassment endured by anyone who publicly disagreed is why the SNP are losing support.

We have a phrase in Scotland that seems appropriate: You fuckin' what, pal?

The Labour Party are even more fucked in Scotland than they are in the rest of the country, and believe me the "Red Tory" strategy from the nationalists is a huge part of that. I don't vote SNP but the idea that they are "losing support" is hilarious. They have 56 MPs and a majority in the Scottish parliament. Again. Every single other party in the UK would kill for their polling figures.

Firstly I am actually Scottish. Secondly they lost their majority in the last election, thirdly Nicolas 9% deficit will hurt Scotland horribly, fourthly if you can´t see a vile demagogue selling the impossible and spreading hatred under the disguise of compassion you need to study political history a bit more. The Tories are now the opposition in Scotland. It took Nicola Sturgeon to achieve that.

ICBM · August 2016

Evilmags said:

The Tories are now the opposition in Scotland. It took Nicola Sturgeon to achieve that.

Not really - it took Johann Lamont, Jim Murphy and the implosion of the Scottish Labour Party to achieve it. What the SNP have done and who leads them is largely irrelevant, because the opposition is largely just a fight between Unionists. If Labour hadn't destroyed themselves they would still be the second party in Scotland - but because they did, the Unionist voters have almost nowhere to go apart from the Tories.

The irony is that Kezia Dugdale got elected before Corbyn and now looks out of step with the UK Labour Party, where in fact a Corbyn faction leader might actually do better in Scotland.

UnclePsychosis · August 2016

Evilmags said:

UnclePsychosis said:

Evilmags said:

The "Red Tory" strategy ultimately failed in Scotland and the harassment endured by anyone who publicly disagreed is why the SNP are losing support.

We have a phrase in Scotland that seems appropriate: You fuckin' what, pal?

The Labour Party are even more fucked in Scotland than they are in the rest of the country, and believe me the "Red Tory" strategy from the nationalists is a huge part of that. I don't vote SNP but the idea that they are "losing support" is hilarious. They have 56 MPs and a majority in the Scottish parliament. Again. Every single other party in the UK would kill for their polling figures.

Firstly I am actually Scottish. Secondly they lost their majority in the last election, thirdly Nicolas 9% deficit will hurt Scotland horribly, fourthly if you can´t see a vile demagogue selling the impossible and spreading hatred under the disguise of compassion you need to study political history a bit more. The Tories are now the opposition in Scotland. It took Nicola Sturgeon to achieve that.

You may be Scottish but you're clearly utterly clueless when it comes to politics on the ground in Scotland.

Evilmags · August 2016

UnclePsychosis said:

Evilmags said:

UnclePsychosis said:

Evilmags said:

The "Red Tory" strategy ultimately failed in Scotland and the harassment endured by anyone who publicly disagreed is why the SNP are losing support.

We have a phrase in Scotland that seems appropriate: You fuckin' what, pal?

The Labour Party are even more fucked in Scotland than they are in the rest of the country, and believe me the "Red Tory" strategy from the nationalists is a huge part of that. I don't vote SNP but the idea that they are "losing support" is hilarious. They have 56 MPs and a majority in the Scottish parliament. Again. Every single other party in the UK would kill for their polling figures.

Firstly I am actually Scottish. Secondly they lost their majority in the last election, thirdly Nicolas 9% deficit will hurt Scotland horribly, fourthly if you can´t see a vile demagogue selling the impossible and spreading hatred under the disguise of compassion you need to study political history a bit more. The Tories are now the opposition in Scotland. It took Nicola Sturgeon to achieve that.

You may be Scottish but you're clearly utterly clueless when it comes to politics on the ground in Scotland.

At the last election their was a decrease in SNP members, not an increase (and last time I looked they lost their majority). Indeed their was a massive increase in Tory voters. Now the 55% who voted No in the last referendum may be a sight quieter than the (very small percentage of the population) activists among the 45%, but nevertheless, every indication suggests that SNP support has peaked. Their is a dead simple reason for this. Initially under Salmond they went after the traditional Tory vote and their selling point was greater economic competence than Labour. Post referendum, and with Sturgeon they have occupied themselves with undelivered Utopian nonsense to get the Labour vote. An electorate is just a market like any other, and you can´t be all things to all people. Noise rarely reflects opinion and their is not a snowball´s chance in hell of winning an independence referendum on current oil prices. Sturgeon has over stretched herself and unless she can win a referendum before her deficit comes home to roost, its a lost cause.

UnclePsychosis · August 2016

Evilmags said:

UnclePsychosis said:

Evilmags said:

UnclePsychosis said:

Evilmags said:

The "Red Tory" strategy ultimately failed in Scotland and the harassment endured by anyone who publicly disagreed is why the SNP are losing support.

We have a phrase in Scotland that seems appropriate: You fuckin' what, pal?

The Labour Party are even more fucked in Scotland than they are in the rest of the country, and believe me the "Red Tory" strategy from the nationalists is a huge part of that. I don't vote SNP but the idea that they are "losing support" is hilarious. They have 56 MPs and a majority in the Scottish parliament. Again. Every single other party in the UK would kill for their polling figures.

Firstly I am actually Scottish. Secondly they lost their majority in the last election, thirdly Nicolas 9% deficit will hurt Scotland horribly, fourthly if you can´t see a vile demagogue selling the impossible and spreading hatred under the disguise of compassion you need to study political history a bit more. The Tories are now the opposition in Scotland. It took Nicola Sturgeon to achieve that.

You may be Scottish but you're clearly utterly clueless when it comes to politics on the ground in Scotland.

At the last election their was a decrease in SNP members, not an increase (and last time I looked they lost their majority). Indeed their was a massive increase in Tory voters. Now the 55% who voted No in the last referendum may be a sight quieter than the (very small percentage of the population) activists among the 45%, but nevertheless, every indication suggests that SNP support has peaked. Their is a dead simple reason for this. Initially under Salmond they went after the traditional Tory vote and their selling point was greater economic competence than Labour. Post referendum, and with Sturgeon they have occupied themselves with undelivered Utopian nonsense to get the Labour vote. An electorate is just a market like any other, and you can´t be all things to all people. Noise rarely reflects opinion and their is not a snowball´s chance in hell of winning an independence referendum on current oil prices. Sturgeon has over stretched herself and unless she can win a referendum before her deficit comes home to roost, its a lost cause.

All of which is completely and utterly irrelevant to your laughable assertion that the "red Tory" strategy was a failure in Scotland, which is the point to which I was responding.

Stick to worshipping Thatcherism, you're better at that.

Evilmags · August 2016

It lost the referendum and the aggression and implied coercion behind it saw a Tory revival. What part of that constitutes success on any level? The inherent nastiness of calling fellow citizens evil and scum in a democratic system will always come back and bite you on the arse. By 2020 the general public will be sick to shit of all of the meaningless posturing and absolute lack of results. The gulf in educational standards is only going to widen, especially if May goes through with Grammar schools. Add that to the ridiculous invasion on privacy implied in Surgeons child mentoring policy and I can´t see how the SNP can keep ex Tory voters and satisfy the ·Red Tory Scum brigade.

scrumhalf · August 2016

Evilmags said:

...By 2020 the general public will be sick to shit of all of the meaningless posturing and absolute lack of results...

No they won't, it's a formula that has "worked" for ages.

Heartfeltdawn · August 2016

Down here in Bristol, the Corbyn train parked its buttocks down for a couple of hours last night.

Prior to Corbyn speaking, damning the Tories was taking a huge second place to tearing the arse off of the Labour PLP. Folk like Hillary Benn were torn to pieces by the local types and union folk. It was quite apparent though when both Abbott and Corbyn spoke that they leave the attacks to others. It might allow them to say that they aren't into divisive politics but that's an easy claim to make when you have others prepared to do it for you in order to give you some spurious moral high ground.

Attendance... claims of thousands would be too large. Just into four figures for my money.

Corbyn himself: he spoke well. Whereas his televised appearances have possessed an awful lot of reading from the script, this wasn't. It's not difficult to see why he hits a young crowd and it was the young element which dominated yesterday. The strange aspect was that it was the old trade unionists who seemed out of place at the event, and that comes down to this problem of how Corbyn marries up all these different strands of support into something coherent that satisfies all, from metropolitan young folk who voted Remain to older trade union types in forgotten industrial towns that went for Leave. I still can't see how the hell he can manage that.

Many Momentum types online have said that there's a Corbynite equivalent of the shy Tory. I dispute this. The shy Tory believed in their policies and in the party yet didn't trumpet them publicly. Most of the folk I know regarding Corbyn do believe in a fairer more socialist society but don't believe in Labour or Corbyn's ability to bring this about. It's more a case of there being a lot of 'Labour agnostics' who do agree with a great number of the points made by JC yesterday but who don't believe in him or the party.

One aspect did stick in the mind. After the event, I escorted my companion back to Temple Meads station. She's rushing for the train and manages to walk past the entourage heading back to Paddington. I watched them walk off and then over to platform 5. No security, no minders, just DA, JC, and Milne, patiently waiting on a seat for a train that won't be along for another twenty minutes. I'm used to political types through former work and volunteering roles, everything from city mayors to Cabinet secretaries. I can't recall one who had so few fellow party officials hanging off him after a major meeting or rally. When people talk about the divide between the politicians and the electorate, a simple act like wheeling your suitcase through a station and clumping it down the stairs like everyone else makes you look more approachable than any number of staged press ops eating bacon sandwiches or posing with workers to try to make you look normal.

However the overwhelming feeling post-rally was one of intense division and this is where the battle is. Bristol is a Labour city but it is not a fully balls out Corbyn city. Many felt he latched onto the mayoral victory last May and tried to claim some of the spoils. Yesterday speakers with a very strong London element came on stage and slagged off Bristol MPs. Universal applause did not ring out for this as it didn't for more local speakers who did the same.

The Labour Bristol webpage has been transformed to reflect this.

http://www.labourbristol.org/

The fighting will not cease whatever the result of the leadership contest. The only way this will end is with a split.

randella · August 2016

@Heartfeltdawn thank you for taking the time to put that together, was a very interesting and well-written insight.

I suppose I'm one of your Labour agnostics - I've generally voted Labour because they most represented the chance to bring about what I think is a fairer society, something I squarely believe in. This despite the fact that me and mine would undoubtedly be better off under sustained Tory rule. I'm no tribalist though; I'm not predisposed to hate the Conservatives, I'm just idealogically opposed to a lot of what they stand for so I will not vote for them. For the same reason, I'm not going to vote for Corbyn's Labour solely because of the colour of his rosette.

The reason I'm so pissed off with the whole shebang is that I see the best chance for gaining power and doing all this 'fair-society progressive left' thing is slipping away into some hazy future of several minor unelectable parties bickering over microscopic differences in ideals. I can't help but be reminded of the "People's Front of Judea" scene in the Life of Brian.

axisus · August 2016

Interesting post @Heartfeltdawn ;

I agree that the split is what will happen. Labour are screwed. They took the party too far to the right over many years, but attempting to shove it right back over to the left in one push can only end in failure.

I told a die-hard Corbynite friend of mine that Labour can't have any 'success' with JC, and his response is that there are different ways of measuring success!?! er .... well not if you want to run the country. I think that his supporters are happy to be merely a minority lefty voice.

ICBM · August 2016

I'm also one of those 'agnostics'. Politically I am probably quite close to Corbyn's position on most issues, and I really hoped that he could turn the party round and make it what it always should have been in my opinion, before Blair and Mandelson hijacked it. Initially I thought he might, because he is down-to-earth and does seem to genuinely believe in dialogue and consensus politics, and I genuinely think more people agree with him than think they do, if they actually look at what those positions are and don't simply believe what the media say about him being 'far left'.

Unfortunately he's proved to be incapable as a leader - and worse, when he's tried, he's become intransigent and dictatorial, which is the exact opposite of what he should be standing for. It's true that he may have no choice given the determined efforts to bring him down coming from the right of the party which I had not quite reckoned for - or at least not the extent of it - but he's not helping his own position.

So for me there are only two useful outcomes - either he has to be deposed and the party return to more of a New Labour position, where it does at least have a vague hope of regaining power in the short or more likely medium term... but which doesn't make me very hopeful about the actual policies and figures involved in this, since they're exactly the ones that got Labour into this mess in the first place; or he has to remain, the right wing has to leave or at worst be completely silenced, and the party return to being a proper socialist party, under Corbyn and then his successor, since I can't see it regaining power in even the medium term now. In the long term I would prefer the second option, but that guarantees Tory rule for at least another eight years, more likely thirteen.

The second option might also allow them to regain ground in Scotland.

Moe_Zambeek · August 2016

UnclePsychosis said:

Evilmags said:

The "Red Tory" strategy ultimately failed in Scotland and the harassment endured by anyone who publicly disagreed is why the SNP are losing support.

We have a phrase in Scotland that seems appropriate: You fuckin' what, pal?

The Labour Party are even more fucked in Scotland than they are in the rest of the country, and believe me the "Red Tory" strategy from the nationalists is a huge part of that. I don't vote SNP but the idea that they are "losing support" is hilarious. They have 56 MPs and a majority in the Scottish parliament. Again. Every single other party in the UK would kill for their polling figures.

I think in fact that it *is* fair to say that the SNP are losing support, even if they have significant majorities. They've lost mine and my families and quite a few of my workmates, too. Anecdotes are not data, but I suspect if I am noticing this in quite an SNP-favourable ecosystem, it's happening elsewhere too. Mainly for being not very good at governing, showing regrettably big-brother tendencies, and blathering on constantly about irrelevant stuff. We want them to shut up and get on with it, and they don't seem able to do that at the moment.

From my perspective they had a good prospectus and talked a good game, so we gave them a shot, then an extension, and then they actually started to get worse at delivering, rather than better. Independence or EU concerns aside, I need the Scottish Govt. to improve the education system, make the NHS work better, invest in and improve the infrastructure and do something about the sinkholes no-one has bothered to help in the past 40 years. I don't see any visible improvements in any of these areas - in fact I see a failure to arrest the decline. The political grandstanding and hypocritical positions they have taken *really* aren't helping. I was once a big fan of Nicola Sturgeon but the recent antics of the SNP have burst that bubble big time.

ICBM · August 2016

Moe_Zambeek said:

I think in fact that it *is* fair to say that the SNP are losing support, even if they have significant majorities. They've lost mine and my families and quite a few of my workmates, too. Anecdotes are not data, but I suspect if I am noticing this in quite an SNP-favourable ecosystem, it's happening elsewhere too. Mainly for being not very good at governing, showing regrettably big-brother tendencies, and blathering on constantly about irrelevant stuff.

And for an alarming tendency to the same sort of nepotistic, crony-ridden one-party-state local government which Labour was associated with for decades in many parts of Scotland… the SNP have got almost as bad within a couple of terms.

Also for stunning acts of political opportunism and hypocrisy in Westminster - in particular voting against reform of the English Sunday Trading laws, which they had no business interfering in at all… and especially when the proposal was to bring them more into line with Scotland. Done for no other reason than to kick Cameron.

I did not vote SNP at the last election.

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What exactly is Jeremy Corbyn's plan?

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