Revealing unforgiving amps (technique wise)

thecolourbox · October 2014

I'd heard before that some amps were more revealing of bad technique than others, so like the sound and feel of them actually mean you have to play "properly" through them almost like another instrument.

I'd not experienced it though, until my current squeeze, the Mooer Little Monster Bassman, which i bought hoping it would sound like a better version of the digital version on the g3 (the one i use for fretboard challenge recordings). When i play well and adapt to it, then it does sound good, not the same as what I wanted but good. But if I'm just noodling, or trying to learn or improvise, the tone seems to suffer.

On the flip side, when i had a Blackstar ht5, that seemed to mask my shortcomings regardless of whether I was playing properly or not.

Anybody else had this kind of thing? I don't know if its the style of the amp, the lack of eq or reverb, or what, but interesting all the same

ICBM · October 2014

Peavey Renown.

Probably the most unforgiving amp I've ever played through. 210 watts of incredibly penetrating clean power and the hardest overdrive tone known to man. Over-pick a note and you will cut a swathe through the audience as wide as the amp right to the back of the room...

I do think it's slightly funny when people go on about 'prefering unforgiving amps'. No you don't

. You just prefer slightly less forgiving amps

.

Drew_TNBD · October 2014

I've never really experienced this for myself, it's just one of those internet things that you read about all the time and so assume it must be true.

I'm not quite sure that physics supports the idea of an unforgiving or even less forgiving amp.

thecolourbox · October 2014

I'm not sure its physics as much as the general sound of it (appreciate that is slightly physics related!), like how with some people's voices they need to shout a certain way to be heard properly. Could be to do with the cleanness maybe, that you have to play a certain way.

It could just be I'm a rubbish player and the amp isn't right :P

Fiftyshadesofjay · October 2014

I'd always imagined it has more to do with a compressed tone being a bit easier to play in that they have a faster attack and feel smoother under the fingers.

For example there's definitely a big difference feel wise between an EVH 5150 iii and an unboosted Mesa Rectifier.

ICBM · October 2014

Drew_fx said:

I've never really experienced this for myself, it's just one of those internet things that you read about all the time and so assume it must be true.

I'm not quite sure that physics supports the idea of an unforgiving or even less forgiving amp.

Try playing a Renown or a Roland JC-120 at full gig volume and you will understand

.

As Fiftyshadesofjay says, it's the lack of compression, the transient attack and the way the tone gets brighter as you dig in which makes these amps unforgiving. Also, when they break up they go directly from very clean to very harsh with nothing in between.

By comparison, all valve amps are slightly compressed (or very compressed), have a softer transient response and get more middy rather than brighter when you dig in, and break up in a naturally more progressive and controllable way, so they sound more 'musical'.

liftman · October 2014

Out of amps I have come across, I'd say silverface Twins , Dr Z EZG and Maz amps are unforgiving.

Cornell 18/20 and Laney Cub 12 super -forgiving. I love the Laney, wish I could find something the same with twice the power.

ThePrettyDamned · October 2014

ICBM said:

Drew_fx said:

I've never really experienced this for myself, it's just one of those internet things that you read about all the time and so assume it must be true.

I'm not quite sure that physics supports the idea of an unforgiving or even less forgiving amp.

Try playing a Renown or a Roland JC-120 at full gig volume and you will understand .

As Fiftyshadesofjay says, it's the lack of compression, the transient attack and the way the tone gets brighter as you dig in which makes these amps unforgiving. Also, when they break up they go directly from very clean to very harsh with nothing in between.

By comparison, all valve amps are slightly compressed (or very compressed), have a softer transient response and get more middy rather than brighter when you dig in, and break up in a naturally more progressive and controllable way, so they sound more 'musical'.

I remember someone saying that a dumble drive sound was very unforgiving, but when I tried an ODS clone, it was compressed and smooth - literally the easiest amp in the world to have a nice lead tone from.

So I say that is as bullshit as people saying a Telecaster is a hard guitar to play. lololololol

My bandit on the clean setting is unforgiving, too - pick light, and it's quiet. Pick hard and it's extraordinarily loud. I had the same experience with a silverface twin, where I found I was happiest using a thinner pick to help reduce the number of times I'd go from a smoother single note riff to a 3 note funky chord that slices ears

Gassage · October 2014

Hiwatt. Totally unforgiving

ThePrettyDamned · October 2014

Gassage said:

Hiwatt. Totally unforgiving

Yeah, I can imagine that.

The only amps that have struck me as having some truth in the unforgiving thing are loud, powerful and possibly even 'strident' sounding, very clean amps.

ICBM · October 2014

Gassage said:

Hiwatt. Totally unforgiving

For a valve amp, yes.

But they just sound so nice! Very much the sledgehammer in a velvet glove.

Big solid-state amps are too cheap to afford the glove

.

Lexie1 · October 2014

Certain models from the Matamp Range could be described as unforgiving I suppose? Certainly nowhere to hide any sloppy technique, that said, it's part of what I love about them. I think I'd put them in the same ball park as HiWatt for that trait, but as i said, it is more evident on certain models and less so on others.

The Trainwreck clone I had would be another, fantastically sensitive to attack, back the volume down to clean things up and there's no hiding place there either.

thecolourbox · October 2014

I dont mean this in a complimentary way! its annoying but interesting, and seeing as I'm probably stuck with it for a while I'm trying to work with it to see if it is something i can beat

Gassage · October 2014

ICBM said:

Gassage said:

Hiwatt. Totally unforgiving

For a valve amp, yes.

But they just sound so nice! Very much the sledgehammer in a velvet glove.

Big solid-state amps are too cheap to afford the glove .

Mine's more the ham fisted iron gloved sledgehammer

Barney · October 2014

It seems that any good quality amp where you can hear exactly what you play unforgiving...or a really bad quality one that sounds bad that you cant do anything with....big difference though...i think my boogie with the EV is very unforgiving but in a band situation fits in great but still shows sloppy technique...as i know..

ICBM · October 2014

Barney said:

It seems that any good quality amp where you can hear exactly what you play unforgiving...or a really bad quality one that sounds bad that you cant do anything with....big difference though...

Not really, just a matter of degree.

I like the big solid-state amps, and you can do something with them if you set them up right. When they're dialed in they're not so fussy regarding technique - the tone doesn't change much with volume, which directly correlates to playing dynamics... which is why I like them. Valve amps are all much easier to set up - even Boogies, which are some of the hardest - even if they still reveal playing mistakes and are harder to control the responsiveness, because the tone does change more with volume.

I don't think any of us pick amps intentionally to make us sound bad, it's just what suits you and which you find easiest to get the sounds out of that you want that's different.

Barney · October 2014

ICBM said:

Barney said:

It seems that any good quality amp where you can hear exactly what you play unforgiving...or a really bad quality one that sounds bad that you cant do anything with....big difference though...

Not really, just a matter of degree.

I like the big solid-state amps, and you can do something with them if you set them up right. When they're dialed in they're not so fussy regarding technique - the tone doesn't change much with volume, which directly correlates to playing dynamics... which is why I like them. Valve amps are all much easier to set up - even Boogies, which are some of the hardest - even if they still reveal playing mistakes and are harder to control the responsiveness, because the tone does change more with volume.

I don't think any of us pick amps intentionally to make us sound bad, it's just what suits you and which you find easiest to get the sounds out of that you want that's different.

oh yeah ...agree totally..its a matter of how you set things up ..i think sometimes people set them to mask the mistakes though and end up sounding a bit mush...where as a good valve amp its hard to do that cos the quality is usually good ..i just think in order to come across well...especially in a live situation it needs to cut and that usually means a unforgiving sound from in front of the amp ...unless every bodies going through the PA....

.i found years ago when i first started playing i had a Maine transistor amp ...and for me where i was standing was perfect ..it made me sound good and play well...so we played and nobody could hear it......a bit later on a go a boogie MK2B..used it in rehearsal and hated it ..made me sound sloppy but seen as i had bought it i thought i better use it......at the end of the night i was complemented on my sound ..i still thought i played sloppy ..lol..

meltedbuzzbox · October 2014

Drew_fx said:

I've never really experienced this for myself, it's just one of those internet things that you read about all the time and so assume it must be true.

I'm not quite sure that physics supports the idea of an unforgiving or even less forgiving amp.

+1

I'm not even sure what is going on in here...

monquixote · October 2014

I play through an amp that's actually marketed as being unforgiving.

"PureTone amps take no prisoners, meting out instant punishment for every mistake and shortcoming in technique."

I don't find it especially difficult to play through and I tend to like amps that are considered "unforgiving". I think it typically refers to amps that are very dynamic so that if you don't pick consistently it sounds very messy, but on the flipside an amp like that can give you a lot of tonal variety just by adjusting your picking.

meltedbuzzbox · October 2014

does unforgiving mean clean with clarity?

Is this more a case of the amp showing up shoddy technique?

p90fool · October 2014

I think it largely depends on whether you play clean or not, I suspect the high gain guys think we're mental.

It's taken me a long time to get to the stage where I have a setup which allows me to play clean electric guitar as effortlessly as an acoustic. My current pickup and amp combination allows me to do just that.
For unforgiving try playing a ceramic bridge humbucker clean through an early Mark series Boogie, then you'll know what we're talking about.

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Revealing unforgiving amps (technique wise)

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