Suggestions for an ambient type pedal board setup?

Megii · September 2015

Branshen said:

You have all the gear you need for swells and ambient. The key is a delay with a tone knob. You want to turn it down. Check out my setting using a single delay pedal.

http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/45457/my-dd-20-ambient-setting#latest

That sounds really great, appreciate the tip @Branshen - I'm sure the G3 has a selection of suitable delays to choose from - I really haven't explored that unit nearly enough, but I think this whole ambient direction will give me a good incentive to do so. All the gigs I do are straight ahead jazz, where I generally just plug straight into the amp, so I've been feeling I need something a bit different to offset/compliment that. I do find myself drawn to more ethereal/atmospheric kinds of music (actually for a long time), hence the ambient pedal board being created. Not that you needed to know that!

Megii · September 2015

not_the_dj said:

Bot a pedal of course, but get an e-bow.

http://www.gak.co.uk/rs/pictures/tn1_30401.jpg

Ok, that's two people have mentioned the e-bow now, it has to be good advice. Thanks @not_the_dj

dogload · September 2015

I would suggest using something like a Boss LS-2 for running parallel effects - such as a blended fuzz/ distortion with a clean into modulation effects

FaCow · September 2015

Earthquaker devices dispatch master will get you ambience in a small box. Otherwise you're basically looking at combining a few delays and reverbs.

You would want a volume pedal to shove in front of your delay for swells. I like a compressor just before the volume pedal as well for sustain, you end up feeding the volume pedal a more uniform signal that sustains throughout the volume pedal sweep.

Your looper is a good shout to build some swashes / background walls of sound to noodle over.

Megii · September 2015

dogload said:

I would suggest using something like a Boss LS-2 for running parallel effects - such as a blended fuzz/ distortion with a clean into modulation effects

That's a good one, and I wouldn't have thought of it either, thanks @dogload

steamabacus · September 2015

@Megii

Yes, you're right in thinking it's all 'mixed' on the fly - it's recorded 'live' (onto minidisc! - my kit's SO out of date. But it works for me) with just a bit of editing and mastering to arrive at what you hear.

The drums are a product of the new JamMan looper setup (and an advantage over the old DL4). I'm still investigating working methods as I like to keep stuff as spontaneous as possible for creativity but, for that one, I had the drum loop stored on the JamMan and all subsequent loops were layered (on the fly) on top of that.

Actually getting the loops suitable for the JamMan does take a bit of time. The actual drum sounds come from Addictive Drums (run in Cubase SX) on my computer - mostly tweaked preset patterns as I find drum programming really tedious. Once I have something I like, I export a mixdown as a .wav file. But the process doesn't stop there.

Before loading the drum loop onto the looper (it connects to a computer via USB) there are two things I have to do -

1) The level has to be adjusted to a suitable level to allow guitar lines to be layered on top. The JamMan does allow the loop level to be adjusted but, if you turn down the loop, all the layers you record on top are reduced in volume as well (rather than being recorded at the level you've played them). For this reason, I keep the loop level on the JamMan set at unity gain (and everything I record on to it is then at the same volume as I've played it) at all times and mix things 'in the moment' with the volume pedal (the looper is last in line of all effects). Because of this setup, the drum loop level has to be at a low enough level to allow multiple guitar layers on top with enough headroom for the final 'live' lead guitar playing to rise above all the looping.

The levels of the drum loops loaded onto the JamMan need to be pretty low to allow this amount of headroom - I generally lower the level by around -18dB to -24dB from when they've been exported from Cubase. It took a bit of trial and error to find the right sort of level. I now just compare any new loop with others I've prepared previously to get the level right.

2) The second part of the process I've come up with is to compensate for the guitar speaker emulation on the drum loops - a 12" speaker is all mids and the drum sounds will be quite muffled when played through a guitar amp (or speaker-emulating pre-amps like I'm using at home). I went online and found the frequency response curve for a 12" speaker and then 'inverted' this response using a graphic equaliser plug-in (in my case, using Cool Edit which I've used for years) - cutting mids, boosting bass and treble frequencies. Again, there was a bit of trial and error to get it right but I now have a preset eq curve and it's just a case of processing the wav file quickly with this.

Once that is all done, the drum loop can be loaded onto the JamMan. As you can see, not the most spontaneous of processes so I do tend to use these base loops again and again. In fact I need to have a session with Addictive Drums and prepare a few more loops - I'm getting a bit over familiar with what's on the looper at the moment.

Obviously, this starting loop can come from any source - I've done things with sampled sections of live drums or singing, for example. Another method I developed with the DL4 before I got the new JamMan (you can't store loops on the DL4) was to created pecussive elements to the loops by slapping/knocking the guitar in various ways - I developed a 'kick drum' technique, a 'snare' technique and a 'hats' technique by varying where I slapped the strings, what pickup, how the tone control was set, etc. While this method sounds much cruder than the stored drum loops, it is far more creative and spontaneous and I still use it.

I'll leave it at that for now but feel free to pick my brains for more specifics. I've been looping for around 15 years now and it's only when trying to explain it that I realise quite what methods I've come up with.

Megii · September 2015

FaCow said:

Earthquaker devices dispatch master will get you ambience in a small box. Otherwise you're basically looking at combining a few delays and reverbs.

You would want a volume pedal to shove in front of your delay for swells. I like a compressor just before the volume pedal as well for sustain, you end up feeding the volume pedal a more uniform signal that sustains throughout the volume pedal sweep.

Your looper is a good shout to build some swashes / background walls of sound to noodle over.

Good stuff, cheers @FaCow . I don't have the volume pedal, but I should soon be in possession of a Boss FV500H thanks to @Branshen - am planning to have it after the compressor and overdrives. I don't know if I'll be purchasing one, but I like to know about the various bits of gear out there, so I'll look into the Earthquaker Dispatch Master.

Megii · September 2015

steamabacus said:

@Megii

Yes, you're right in thinking it's all 'mixed' on the fly - it's recorded 'live' (onto minidisc! - my kit's SO out of date. But it works for me) with just a bit of editing and mastering to arrive at what you hear.

The drums are a product of the new JamMan looper setup (and an advantage over the old DL4). I'm still investigating working methods as I like to keep stuff as spontaneous as possible for creativity but, for that one, I had the drum loop stored on the JamMan and all subsequent loops were layered (on the fly) on top of that.

Actually getting the loops suitable for the JamMan does take a bit of time. The actual drum sounds come from Addictive Drums (run in Cubase SX) on my computer - mostly tweaked preset patterns as I find drum programming really tedious. Once I have something I like, I export a mixdown as a .wav file. But the process doesn't stop there.

Before loading the drum loop onto the looper (it connects to a computer via USB) there are two things I have to do -

1) The level has to be adjusted to a suitable level to allow guitar lines to be layered on top. The JamMan does allow the loop level to be adjusted but, if you turn down the loop, all the layers you record on top are reduced in volume as well (rather than being recorded at the level you've played them). For this reason, I keep the loop level on the JamMan set at unity gain (and everything I record on to it is then at the same volume as I've played it) at all times and mix things 'in the moment' with the volume pedal (the looper is last in line of all effects). Because of this setup, the drum loop level has to be at a low enough level to allow multiple guitar layers on top with enough headroom for the final 'live' lead guitar playing to rise above all the looping.

The levels of the drum loops loaded onto the JamMan need to be pretty low to allow this amount of headroom - I generally lower the level by around -18dB to -24dB from when they've been exported from Cubase. It took a bit of trial and error to find the right sort of level. I now just compare any new loop with others I've prepared previously to get the level right.

2) The second part of the process I've come up with is to compensate for the guitar speaker emulation on the drum loops - a 12" speaker is all mids and the drum sounds will be quite muffled when played through a guitar amp (or speaker-emulating pre-amps like I'm using at home). I went online and found the frequency response curve for a 12" speaker and then 'inverted' this response using a graphic equaliser plug-in (in my case, using Cool Edit which I've used for years) - cutting mids, boosting bass and treble frequencies. Again, there was a bit of trial and error to get it right but I now have a preset eq curve and it's just a case of processing the wav file quickly with this.

Once that is all done, the drum loop can be loaded onto the JamMan. As you can see, not the most spontaneous of processes so I do tend to use these base loops again and again. In fact I need to have a session with Addictive Drums and prepare a few more loops - I'm getting a bit over familiar with what's on the looper at the moment.

Obviously, this starting loop can come from any source - I've done things with sampled sections of live drums or singing, for example. Another method I developed with the DL4 before I got the new JamMan (you can't store loops on the DL4) was to created pecussive elements to the loops by slapping/knocking the guitar in various ways - I developed a 'kick drum' technique, a 'snare' technique and a 'hats' technique by varying where I slapped the strings, what pickup, how the tone control was set, etc. While this method sounds much cruder than the stored drum loops, it is far more creative and spontaneous and I still use it.

I'll leave it at that for now but feel free to pick my brains for more specifics. I've been looping for around 15 years now and it's only when trying to explain it that I realise quite what methods I've come up with.

Great post, thank you for taking the time to explain all that @steamabacus - I do find it very interesting . As you say, quite an evolved process - I'm sure at least some of that will be useful to me at some stage, although I think a bit beyond my current experience/skill with looping at the moment. Cheers again though, really appreciated.

jonnygreentrees · September 2015

Line 6 M5 for the Particle Verb

ThePrettyDamned · September 2015

I used a line 6 m5 with an expression pedal I borrowed the other day and if I'd had a looper I'd have had a great time with that plus an extra delay.

The pattern trem with expression pedal takes it from quite a naff effect to something you can do cool rhythms that sit on top of ambient nonsense to break into a dancier thing.

And the particle verb with expression is cool, but it's not the best particle verb I've heard. The cave is nice.

I also LOVE the low res delay for ambient stuff - it's very washy sounding. That, plus a heavily modulated cleaner delay before it gives all sorts of nice sounds.

jonnygreentrees;773373" said:
Line 6 M5 for the Particle Verb

Megii · September 2015

jonnygreentrees said:

Line 6 M5 for the Particle Verb

Just checked that out on Youtube - good one @jonnygreentrees . A pretty spooky effect, kind of has a vocal quality to it, like an unearthly choir or something. I notice Zoom has nicked the idea and put their own version on the MS70-CDR , somewhat cheeky of them!

Megii · September 2015

ThePrettyDamned said:

I used a line 6 m5 with an expression pedal I borrowed the other day and if I'd had a looper I'd have had a great time with that plus an extra delay.

The pattern trem with expression pedal takes it from quite a naff effect to something you can do cool rhythms that sit on top of ambient nonsense to break into a dancier thing.

And the particle verb with expression is cool, but it's not the best particle verb I've heard. The cave is nice.

I also LOVE the low res delay for ambient stuff - it's very washy sounding. That, plus a heavily modulated cleaner delay before it gives all sorts of nice sounds.

jonnygreentrees;773373" said:
Line 6 M5 for the Particle Verb

Cheers @ThePrettyDamned - so much good, and inexpensive, gear around these days - we are really spoiled I think...

jonnygreentrees · September 2015

Megii said:

jonnygreentrees said:

Line 6 M5 for the Particle Verb

Just checked that out on Youtube - good one @jonnygreentrees . A pretty spooky effect, kind of has a vocal quality to it, like an unearthly choir or something. I notice Zoom has nicked the idea and put their own version on the MS70-CDR , somewhat cheeky of them!

Yeah that's mostly what I use my M5 for! Making drones and looping them

therose789 · September 2015

I love my el capistan for a lovely washy tape delay type of effect!

I used to have a RV5 too on modulated mode it was real nice! you can get those for pretty cheap too

Megii · September 2015

jonnygreentrees said:

Megii said:

jonnygreentrees said:

Line 6 M5 for the Particle Verb

Just checked that out on Youtube - good one @jonnygreentrees . A pretty spooky effect, kind of has a vocal quality to it, like an unearthly choir or something. I notice Zoom has nicked the idea and put their own version on the MS70-CDR , somewhat cheeky of them!

Yeah that's mostly what I use my M5 for! Making drones and looping them

And why not? Cheers

Megii · September 2015

therose789 said:

I love my el capistan for a lovely washy tape delay type of effect!

I used to have a RV5 too on modulated mode it was real nice! you can get those for pretty cheap too

Thanks @therose789 - modulated reverb, hmm - not sure if the G3 can do that, will have to have a look.

FaCow · September 2015

I second @therose789 . El capistan is a great delay to use. I had the El Capistan coupled with a dispatch master for ambient for a very long time!

With those two pedals alone you have 2 delays to stack, some reverb that can get pretty damn cavernous and some looper functionality. The warbleyness of the el capistan and its multitaps stacked into the delay and reverb of the dispatch master will get you some pretty nice ambience!

Megii · September 2015

FaCow said:

I second @therose789 . El capistan is a great delay to use. I had the El Capistan coupled with a dispatch master for ambient for a very long time!

With those two pedals alone you have 2 delays to stack, some reverb that can get pretty damn cavernous and some looper functionality. The warbleyness of the el capistan and its multitaps stacked into the delay and reverb of the dispatch master will get you some pretty nice ambience!

Thanks @FaCow - I well imagine having things like the El Capistan on a board one day, but for now a bit out of my affordable range, so I'll have to settle for just taking inspiration from such things, and do what I can with the zoom g3. Appreciate your posting though - Strymon do appear to make some highly desirable bits of kit.

steamabacus · September 2015

There's so many nice ambient effects on the market these days - lots of very desirable units highlighted in this thread. It's a good job I long ago came to terms with what I'd like to have and what my disposable income allows. It's good to keep abreast of what's out there, though.

But, coming back to the original question - with the addition of a volume pedal (and maybe an e-bow

) you have pretty much everything you NEED to produce some fairly sophisticated sounding ambient tracks right there.

One thing that I feel is often overlooked when discussing ambient guitar 'sounds' is the enormous possibilities that open up when you fully explore the use of a looper.

As guitarists, we're used to playing a guitar and having a sound come out of the amp. With all the wonderful effects units now on the market, that sound can be as huge, lush and epically un-guitarlike as your imagination (and budget!) allows. And, if you're performing live, maybe you NEED all those esoteric fx in order to get the performance to work.

But, especially if you're just recording stuff at home, you really don't NEED very much at all to come up with comparable (and, arguably, better) sounds with a few basic effects - because you can layer up parts on top of each other.

Not only can you layer up different parts but you can layer up the same (or similar) parts - maybe varying tone, texture, effects, etc. - to create vast new sounds. It's a case of a change of mind set, really. If you think about the sound of a single violin and then the sound of a massed string section in an orchestra, they are very different sounds that perform very different roles in a musical composition. A looper allows you to layer up multiple versions of 'you' playing along with your 'other selves' in a kind of virtual orchestral section.

It does take a bit of a change of mind set. I've been working with two friends who are new to looping who have made the same mistake we all do when we start - if you're 'mixing' on the fly, if you make your initial layers, your initial parts too 'big', by the time you've put 6, 12, however many new layers on top you've filled up everything to a messy mush of a sound. A part can be quite small and 'background' and still have a huge impact on the overall sound.

You have to think more orchestrally, more like a conductor maybe? A single violinist's playing may be buried in the overall sound of the orchestra but it's a vital part of what makes the overall musical effect.

I'd even argue that layered up sounds have more 'life' and 'depth' than a single part through the lushest, most esoteric multiple Strymon board by the very fact that you are hearing multiple parts, multiple 'versions of you' playing together. In the same way that several guitarists playing the same guitar line together sound richer and fuller than a single guitar through even the latest lushest-of-the-lush chorus pedal.

Megii · September 2015

Some great thoughts and ideas, thank you again for your very helpful posts @steamabacus . I do find it kind of amazing that the modest, and inexpensive set up I have is already capable of doing so much. For me, it's going to something a bit refreshing and new to explore, and which I hope will provide an outlet for a side of my musical personality that doesn't normally get used so much. In a way it's like going back to basics too, or starting with a clean sheet. I'll bear in mind your very good point about not overlayering, or over-processing with effects. I'll probably still make the mistake

but I'll bear it in mind, and might at least learn the lesson a bit quicker in the end. "Enormous possibilities" does sound great to me - a whole new world to explore, can't be bad.

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