Good trader thread - suggestion for revamp as it currently doesn't work!

UnclePsychosis · November 2015

fretmeister said:

I'll ignore the fact that I suggested this donkeys ago, and was shot down because Basschat charges for the classifieds. because that's clearly the same thing as feedback.

I have also suggested this ***harumph, grumpy grump grump***

Welcome @tedmanzie good to have you on board.

EricTheWeary · November 2015

Jookyjr said:

Would it be better if people just left feedback on the seller's wall? No need for new threads/sections and nobody seems to use it for much apart from publicly available PMS

I presume that the thread owner can't edit it (?) so no hassle on the fraud front.

Downside: It wouldn't give a total count, but you could soon get an idea reading through the various feedback.

Having had a quick look at the basschat feedback system I can see that being rife with multiple threads on the same member and subject to the same CBA syndrome as the current system. The seller's wall is a Vanilla function that doesn't seem to have much use so would make a lot of sense to use this and keeps it all in the same place for each user. There doesn't seem to be a report function on it which is a minor downside but then any disputes would be on those walls between the two users and the mods not in any he said no he said Discussions. Or, in brief, +1 @jookyjr

dean2371 · November 2015

the current +1 system works for me, quick and easy to provide feedback and read the members score. its a job for someone to keep it updated, but seems as though we might have a volunteer or two

xtedmanzie · November 2015

dean2371 said:

the current +1 system works for me, quick and easy to provide feedback and read the members score. its a job for someone to keep it updated, but seems as though we might have a volunteer or two

I was confused by it at first (as the good traders list is hundreds of pages long) but I can see the value of the 1st page summary. If mods are able to upkeep the +1 system then maybe there could be both systems running: the +1 as is, and a separate individual traders thread.

The other thing was it was difficult to find in its current location so maybe that could be tweaked.

Anyway, the classifieds looks very good generally - loads of interesting items with decent looking threads and comments. Well done, I fear this place might cost me a few quid!

Flink_Poyd · November 2015

It's a good suggestion (keep 'em coming) . I personally think the wall is a good idea as well, I know it has been mentioned somewhere when this was discussed before. Problem with the wall is directing people to it, it's not necessarily hidden but not entirely obvious where it is and what its for.

iseverynamegone · November 2015

photek;874242" said:
I don't see the problem with the +1 list on here. Really quickly go to the first page, find the user name and read the number next to it.

If you need to leave multiple +1's it takes seconds rather than finding the users thread and commenting. I suspect more folk are likely to leave feedback if it is a simple +1@blah.

I've been a member over 2 years , sold
and bought numerous guitars and pedals without an issue with quite a few +1s in the thread content.

If you look on the first page though I'm not there. I don't suppose it matters too much as anyone can search for username and then the feedback can be seen.

I think feedback on the wall is a good
Idea.

photek · November 2015

iseverynamegone;875780" said:

If you look on the first page though I'm not there. I don't suppose it matters too much as anyone can search for username and then the feedback can be seen.

I think feedback on the wall is a good
Idea.

That is a 30 second job to rectify if there is a person in charge of the list.

stickyfiddle · November 2015

I don't see any issue with having a thread per person, and agreed when it was first mooted by UncPsy and Fret. Anyone buying or selling can link to their own thread in their FS and WTB threads, and flag any time a duplicate thread is made and that could be merged with the proper thread. I can't imagine that would be much work as long as not too many people are morons.

TTony · November 2015

So, my thoughts so far ...

Generally accepted comment that the current system isn't as useful as it could be.
The search functionality on the site isn't the most intuitive either.
The list of member scores at the top of the thread is just over 2 years out of date - ie it covers the first 4-5 months of the forum, but nothing since Nov '13 - and we've gained a lot of new members since Nov '13 who aren't in that list.
If kept up to date, a feedback system is a useful indicator of how reliable a member is as a trading partner.
The more transparent and easily-accessible it is, the better.
Using a member's wall is an option, but different people use it for different things (eg public messages, status updates, etc), so trading feedback would get mixed up with other stuff, and there's no modding oversight of wall activity (which is both a good and a bad thing).
Using a BassChat style system would be a major PITA to set it up (there's 2 years of trades to incorporate!), and - to be most effective - would need mod control to avoid the creation of duplicate threads for an individual member.
But I'm thinking the BassChat style system would be the best option. Once set-up, it wouldn't take a lot of mod intervention to keep it running and updated.
And I have a potential volunteer for the role of Classifieds-Mod.

How would it work?

A separate sub-section in the Classifieds, called "Feedback".
This sub-section contains a single thread for each member who gets involved in deals and generates feedback.
At the end of a deal, the parties post a new comment on each other's thread.
The Classifieds Mod would be the only person able to create new threads - thereby avoiding the creation of duplicate threads for a member - and could remove any "noise" posts in a thread.
But that should be the only reliance on a Mod role - other than that, the system runs itself.
There's no overall "score" generated, but anyone could see the list of posts to see the list of deals done and feedback. You'd also see who the deal was with, so slightly more transparency.

We'd try to incorporate all of the existing feedback into the launch of the new process.

photek · November 2015

@TTony can I just check something, would good and bad feedback be in the same thread? I am trying to get it in my head how I quickly check how much good and bad feedback a member has. On basschat I have to read through potentially pages of comments to decifer a rough number of good v bad.

This is the last time I will say it (I promise haha) but the only negative with the current system is that it hasn't been kept up to date. The new system will bring considerable burden to the users and to folk wanting to leave feedback that just isn't there at the moment.

Either way I will still contribute but I know damn well how hard it is to get people to leave a simple +1 as it is and they are not going to write a post on several threads with the new system.

TTony · November 2015

photek said:

would good and bad feedback be in the same thread

I think so - unless a general bad trader emerged that warranted a special alert, rather than being hidden in a feedback thread.

photek said:

the only negative with the current system is that it hasn't been kept up to date. The new system will bring considerable burden to the users and to folk wanting to leave feedback that just isn't there at the moment.

True re the current system, but in 2 years of lying neglected, no-one's stepped in to volunteer to take the job on ...

Under the new system, a feedback-giver will have to find the appropriate person's thread before adding the feedback, but that's the only additional "burden" on them - unless I've missed something?? The more frequent traders will naturally gravitate towards the top of the list of threads anyway.

photek said:

I know damn well how hard it is to get people to leave a simple +1 as it is and they are not going to write a post on several threads with the new system.

They only have to add a simple "+1" post on one thread per trade - is that a lot to ask to be able to maintain an up-to-date good traders system?

But I've put it out there for debate - if there's a view that it won't work, I'll happily avoid the major investment in time to set it up!

photek · November 2015

Good points well made chap. To be honest I think I am in the minority in terms of liking the old system. One thing I had fogotten was that the folk trading the most will be closer to the top of the list.

The bad feedback bit may be better dealt with on a separate thread as well as on each users thread. I have a favourite set on the bad traders list here which alerts each time someone posts and that has saved me money at least twice so far.

fretfinder · November 2015

If there was to be a new system I think it ought to be able to incorporate from the start the existing feedback on here in the good traders thread. Some of us have spent a lot of time - and money! - on building up a load of pluses on there. It would seem to be wrong for those people to have to start again from scratch when they already have a good track record.

dean2371 · November 2015

Personally I found the old system just fine. Didn't we have a volunteer earlier in his thread to keep it up to date? How about updating what we have whilst continuing to debate whether there are better ways of doing it. I agree that it needs to be kept simple or people won't bother posting

TTony · November 2015

dean2371 said:

Personally I found the old system just fine.

It hadn't been updated in over 2 years - all the stats on the front page reflect about 4 months of activity on the here, and ignore the last 24 months.

fretfinder said:

If there was to be a new system I think it ought to be able to incorporate from the start the existing feedback on here in the good traders thread.

That's the intention.

xtedmanzie · November 2015

TTony said:

photek said:

would good and bad feedback be in the same thread

I think so - unless a general bad trader emerged that warranted a special alert, rather than being hidden in a feedback thread.

photek said:

the only negative with the current system is that it hasn't been kept up to date. The new system will bring considerable burden to the users and to folk wanting to leave feedback that just isn't there at the moment.

True re the current system, but in 2 years of lying neglected, no-one's stepped in to volunteer to take the job on ...

Under the new system, a feedback-giver will have to find the appropriate person's thread before adding the feedback, but that's the only additional "burden" on them - unless I've missed something?? The more frequent traders will naturally gravitate towards the top of the list of threads anyway.

photek said:

I know damn well how hard it is to get people to leave a simple +1 as it is and they are not going to write a post on several threads with the new system.

They only have to add a simple "+1" post on one thread per trade - is that a lot to ask to be able to maintain an up-to-date good traders system?

But I've put it out there for debate - if there's a view that it won't work, I'll happily avoid the major investment in time to set it up!

From my experience on Basschat (i've bought and sold 50+ things) the feedback system isn't a 'burden' at all - you do usually have to remind people when you've finished your PM's - eg "thanks for the sale, I'll leave feedback on your thread if you can do the same for me it would be much appreciated." And of course if you have a thread already you just direct them to the link. 9 times out of 10 it gets done, if it doesn't it's no big deal really. I don't bother asking now to be honest as once you've got a few pages of positive comments it tells it's own story. I've never had to deal with a bad trader so I don't actually know how that works.

I don't know how you manage the +1 system here but if that could remain in tandem then that's great, and yes of course I agree that current feedback numbers should remain, but presumably not the individual posts as that would be a massive task to divide those up!?

The current system definitely does not work for seeing actual feedback along the lines of "really nice bloke, even offered to drop the guitar round to my house, prompt answering of emailes etc."

The classifieds does tend to be the hive of activity on the site. I haven't found another good forum to sell/buy specifically guitars, so you're onto a good thing here!

minimoog · December 2015

The Heroes and Villains forum on the watch forum TZ-UK works very well. You have a H&V sub-forum in the classifieds and people post a positive or negative review with Hero (or Villain) and the user name of who they're reviewing in the title. It's then easy and quick to search that particular forum for instances of the user name you're interested in and see how many threads there are about them and whether it's Hero or Villain status they've been awarded by whoever traded with them and left the review. All the details of why they're such a gent/bounder are in the threads themselves.

So you get a sub-forum with a list of threads such as

HERO - Axewarrior

HERO - Plinky

Absolute HERO - Minimooog

VILLAIN - Fretwanker

etc etc.

It works great. Just a thought...

dean2371 · December 2015

@TTony I know it hasn't been updated, that's the problem. It worked fine on the music radar forum, and I don't think there is anything wrong with the concept. How hard is it to update? Didn't we have a volunteer earlier in the thread? There may be others; even someone technologically illiterate like me might have a go if it's straightforward technically

TTony · December 2015

dean2371 said:

I don't think there is anything wrong with the concept. How hard is it to update? Didn't we have a volunteer earlier in the thread?

Agree @dean2371 - there's nothing wrong with the concept.

It's the implementation of the concept that gets tricky.

Firstly, the system is entirely dependent on the volunteer. People volunteer and take on the job with all good intentions, but if they look away for a week or two and don't stay on top of the daily posts, the backlog of feedback posts builds up very quickly. Then, rather than a 20min/day job, it becomes a 2-3 hour task. So it gets put off for a few more days until they've got the free time, and then it's a 4-5 hour task. So it gets put off for a few more days ...

We need a system that isn't dependent on the human intervention.

Secondly, there's a limit to the amount of characters you can type in a post. If you edited the alphabetic list of feedback by user to update the scores, and include all the new members, you'd exceed that limit. We can't insert new posts out of time/date sequence, so the current list would have to be truncated, or the entire thread closed and a new one started. Not impossible to sort, but a pita again.

The Basschat system overcomes both of those drawbacks.

minimoog · December 2015

Sounds like the basschat system is similar to the TZ-Uk one, except there's only 1 thread per user whereas TZ has one thread per transaction/feedback.

Here's a shot of the current front page of the TZ H&V forum

http://i.imgur.com/MHBALl3.jpg

And here's the same forum where I searched for my own user name

http://i.imgur.com/59zRHpU.jpg

So in a few seconds anyone can see at a glance I've had five feedbacks, all good. Anyone who wants to open the threads to see details can.

It takes no mod intervention to run except presumably in rare cases where Villain feedback is left and the receiver feels aggrieved, but that applies to any system.

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Good trader thread - suggestion for revamp as it currently doesn't work!

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