Diesel cars (toxic tax) announced

impmann

hywelg said:

Sadik Khan has announced the ULEZ will be introduce early,  in 2019, and will be levied at £12.50


Nottingham will better that probably £15 and will cite raising fund for the next phase of the tram system as justification. They won't be able to introduce it so quickly though as there's not ANPR system installed unlike London 

ANPR?

Oh thats OK then.

I'll dig out my 1964 Hillman Imp and drive the streets of London all day. It has Black n Silver plates (quite legally due to its age) which are invisible to ANPR cameras. :-) Have some hydro-carbons on me, Sadik.

Majorscale

Here's Londons ULEZ details:

London's ultra low emission zone (ULEZ):

• Covers the same area as the existing congestion zone and will be in addition to the congestion charge
• Applies to petrol vehicles that do not meet Euro 4 standards and diesel vehicles that do not meet Euro 6 standards
• Will apply 24 hours a day, 365 days a year
• Will not apply to residents living in the zone until April 2022
• Black taxis are exempt
• Replaces the £10 T-Charge which will apply for older cars entering the capital from October

crunchman

They should apply it to Euro 6 diesels as well.  There were articles in the Evening Standard (and other papers) yesterday saying that some of them are giving out 12 times as much emissions as they claim to.  I think the average diesel is 6 to 8 times the official claimed figures.

ICBM

Majorscale said:

• Will not apply to residents living in the zone until April 2022
• Black taxis are exempt

WTF? That will actively encourage Londoners to buy older more polluting diesels, and black cab drivers not to replace theirs.

Create a loophole and people will jump through it - that's the whole reason we're in this mess in the first place.

stickyfiddle

To be fair, almost nobody living the congestion zone has a car, and if they do, they've likely got enough money to not care about these new rules

rlw

24/7/365 though.  That's a bummer as I sometimes like to drive in on a Saturday or Sunday when I'm working.

crunchman

ICBM said:

Majorscale said:

• Will not apply to residents living in the zone until April 2022
• Black taxis are exempt

WTF? That will actively encourage Londoners to buy older more polluting diesels, and black cab drivers not to replace theirs.

Create a loophole and people will jump through it - that's the whole reason we're in this mess in the first place.

If you are being kind to the mayor, the exemption until 2022 is probably about not penalising people who have bought diesels under the existing rules in good faith.  If you are being cynical then it's about not losing the next mayoral election.  Either way, the key thing is to change people's car buying decisions going forwards - which this should achieve.  If you live in London, you would be an idiot to buy a car now that you are going to get charged a fortune to drive into London in a few years.  In the current climate I think most people to be an idiot to buy a new diesel at all given that they will probably depreciate massively in value.

 You also have to remember that a lot of London boroughs are charging more for residents parking for diesels which is an additional disincentive to diesels for London residents.

On black cabs, there are new requirements for black cabs registered after 1st Jan 2018.  The new ones will be petrol hybrid.  I think I remember reading that they have to be capable of doing 30 miles purely on electric power.

There is already a 15 year age limit on black cabs so the oldest ones will have to be replaced.  They won't be able to keep on running them indefinitely.  TFL also have some kind of decommissioning scheme to assist cab drivers in replacing older ones with new ones.  Personally, I don't think black cabs should get special treatment but it is what it is.

There are rules coming in for minicabs as well, but they are a couple of years behind black cabs.

It's not ideal.  Minicabs should be the same date as black cabs and there will still be tens of thousands of diesel delivery vans driving around London.  They urgently need to find a way to make them electric or hydrogen fuel cell.  If necessary bring back milk floats for this kind of thing.  They are making lots of short stops.  A modern version of a milk float would be ideal.  Hitting private cars won't do any harm, but the majority of motorised traffic in central London is cabs and delivery vans.

hywelg

crunchman said:

They should apply it to Euro 6 diesels as well.  There were articles in the Evening Standard (and other papers) yesterday saying that some of them are giving out 12 times as much emissions as they claim to.  I think the average diesel is 6 to 8 times the official claimed figures.

As desirable as that might be from a ecological standpoint the effect would be to ban all diesels (apart from those owned by rich people who can afford the fees) Euro7 when it comes in will likely bring with it a new testing regime, but until then there is only one standard and thats Euro6.

The fact remains you cannot buy a non-diesel van, you will struggle to find a non-diesel MPV or larger car. And thats new. So until manufacturers are coerced into making them available buyers cannot do anything about the problem. And of course normal people wishing to buy a 2-3 year or older vehicle will have zero options for quite a long while.

The government seem to be dumping the immediate problem onto local government quite successfully, but ultimately they have to change the pricing rules, both for the fuel, and vehicle excise duty, but also for capital allowances and BIK rules. These are what drive business purchases, and thus the willingness of manufacturers to cater for the need. Then we'll see things change much more rapidly.

Sporky

crunchman said:

In the current climate I think most people to be an idiot to buy a new diesel at all given that they will probably depreciate massively in value.

Not when there's still so little choice in petrols, hybrids or electrics.

Calling people idiots for a lack of available choice is frankly daft.

57Deluxe

I don't own a die-sel but don't agree with any of this at all. ALSO - has anyone mentioned the ADDITIONAL penalty levie proposal of up to THREE TIMES the Parking Rate in London for a Diesel from 2020 for pre 2016 models??

crunchman

Sporky said:

crunchman said:

In the current climate I think most people to be an idiot to buy a new diesel at all given that they will probably depreciate massively in value.

Not when there's still so little choice in petrols, hybrids or electrics.

Calling people idiots for a lack of available choice is frankly daft.

I did say most people - not all.  There are some circumstances where diesel still makes sense but most drivers I see on my way to work are not in big people carriers and the majority (at the moment) seem to be diesel.  When those drivers come to replace their car they would be idiots to buy a diesel.  I'll stand by that.

Even with bigger cars, if you are buying new now there are options.  For an example, if you want an MPV the first two I've checked are the Citroen Grande Picasso and Ford S-Max.  Both have petrol options.  I would imagine that most other manufacturers will offer a petrol option of some kind.  If they don't, then they will lose sales to the likes of Citroen and Ford who do and will add a petrol option very quickly.

As @hywelg says, it is difficult in certain sectors of the market.  I've experienced it myself.  We drive a 7 seater and we had very limited options because we wanted a petrol.  We ended up with a Toyota Verso.  It's not quite as big as some 7 seaters but it's perfect for us.  Apart from the fact that my conscience wouldn't let me buy a diesel living in London, a diesel just wouldn't make sense for the kind of driving we do.  While we need 7 seats, the main uses are short journeys like getting my wife to work, going to church, and going shopping.  We can go three months between long motorway trips, and only do about 7,000 miles per year.  Buying anything with a DPF to clog up would have been utterly stupid in our situation.

It's going to be a lot more tricky for the next few years if you are in the market second hand, and you might well end up paying a premium for a petrol.  I don't think there is any way around that.  Also, if you have bought a diesel recently, you are likely to find yourself being hit on resale/part ex value.  Diesel owners might not like it but it's the new reality.

Even if you have no option but to buy a diesel, I would expect it to depreciate very quickly and you would need to go into it with that mindset.  Conversely, I think I'm in a good position with a petrol 7 seater.  In the current climate it's likely to hold its value very well.

Axe_meister

Surely the fairest option is to have a fuel escalator on diesels. Add 1p per year whilst people drive them to the end of their life and replace with newer technologies

ICBM

crunchman said:

If you live in London, you would be an idiot to buy a car now that you are going to get charged a fortune to drive into London in a few years.

Not if you're looking for a cheap car that you expect to last for less than five years. In that case, an old cheap diesel makes the most sense - since their value has now fallen - which will have precisely the opposite result to that intended. By holding off the date for the rule change they have encouraged the buying of exactly the worst possible kind of cars, in that it's beyond the life expectancy most people would expect to get out of an old car.

Yet again, it's adding unnecessary complication to something which needs to be made simple and creating a new problem. Politicians seem to be incapable of seeing this.

crunchman said:

Even with bigger cars, if you are buying new now there are options.  For an example, if you want an MPV the first two I've checked are the Citroen Grande Picasso and Ford S-Max.  Both have petrol options.

They aren't that easy to find second hand though - nor are Renault Scenics, or most other MPVs. The Toyota does seem to be one of the only exceptions, and I would certainly have to consider one if my Renault dies, although I prefer the Renault.

Axe_meister

Well there is an alternative to and MPV. An estate car which on average have bigger boots anyway.

ICBM

Axe_meister said:

Well there is an alternative to and MPV. An estate car which on average have bigger boots anyway.

Not an alternative - they're not big enough. I used to drive estate cars until I discovered how much more practical an MPV is. You'll struggle to find any estate car with even a boot the size of a Grand Scenic, let alone the ability to get seven people in it or take all the seats out and approach the size of a small van… and from something which is shorter on the road and has a better driving position too.

Axe_meister

We had a 7 seater Volvo estate as a kid. Most MPVs I've been in (and 4x4s) have had a piddling little boot. Yes they have height but very little floor space.
maybe there is a market for importing big US petrol pick-ups.

hywelg

crunchman said:

 When those drivers come to replace their car they would be idiots to buy a diesel.  I'll stand by that.

No, not idiots, just constrained by contradictory rules.

Unless you have £30k to burn you will be buying s/h. Lets face it, most people will buy a secondhand car. I'm not flush with cash enough to throw away the 35% deprication in years 1 and 2. So ingrained is diesel that you will find precious few bigger vehicles in petrol versions 2-3 years old.

And show me a petrol  vehicle of a decent size that is lower than 130g/km CO2?. Again government rules mean I need to be below that to claim a proper capital allowance rate for the business use. Otherwise its a derisory 8% write down, which means you can never claim it all.

hotpot

ICBM said:

crunchman said:

If you live in London, you would be an idiot to buy a car now that you are going to get charged a fortune to drive into London in a few years.

Not if you're looking for a cheap car that you expect to last for less than five years. In that case, an old cheap diesel makes the most sense - since their value has now fallen - which will have precisely the opposite result to that intended. By holding off the date for the rule change they have encouraged the buying of exactly the worst possible kind of cars, in that it's beyond the life expectancy most people would expect to get out of an old car.

Yet again, it's adding unnecessary complication to something which needs to be made simple and creating a new problem. Politicians seem to be incapable of seeing this.



You're absolutely right, people will snap up these cheap diesel cars, I myself thought about it but I don't do the mileage since retiring to warrant one, It's very tempting though.

I shall be going from petrol head to electric head for my next car. A Nissan Leaf will suit me down to the ground, There are plenty ex lease cars around at the moment, It's a no brainer for my needs now.

Zero road tax, I can charge up overnight on cheap rate electricity around £3 to fully charge a Leaf & the oil companies can go & fook themselves.


From driving old cars all my life I'll be going high tech for the first time in my life lol. 

ICBM

Axe_meister said:

We had a 7 seater Volvo estate as a kid. Most MPVs I've been in (and 4x4s) have had a piddling little boot. Yes they have height but very little floor space.

I'd agree about the smaller MPVs, but the big ones with seven seats have huge boots when the seats aren't up. I can get an Ampeg 6x10" bass cab in the boot of the Grand Scenic, across the space with the head behind it and the shutter over the top. The guitarist in my band has a Volvo estate and is constantly amazed by how much bigger the Renault is. No way I'd go back to an estate car until I'm not doing this sort of thing any more.

crunchman

hywelg said:

crunchman said:

 When those drivers come to replace their car they would be idiots to buy a diesel.  I'll stand by that.

No, not idiots, just constrained by contradictory rules.

Unless you have £30k to burn you will be buying s/h. Lets face it, most people will buy a secondhand car. I'm not flush with cash enough to throw away the 35% deprication in years 1 and 2. So ingrained is diesel that you will find precious few bigger vehicles in petrol versions 2-3 years old.

And show me a petrol  vehicle of a decent size that is lower than 130g/km CO2?. Again government rules mean I need to be below that to claim a proper capital allowance rate for the business use. Otherwise its a derisory 8% write down, which means you can never claim it all.

http://www.comparison.citroen.co.uk/co2emissions/select/lead?kee=633111

That model was introduced in 2014 so it ought to be possible to find one second hand.  I imagine that there will be limited quantities for a year or two, but intelligent buyers will have been seeing the writing on the wall for diesel for a while so there should be some out there.