Helix LT is now available for order. Cut down version - ish.

Heartfeltdawn

Sporky said:

digitalscream said:

by restricting availability, they're giving customers another reason not to buy their products.

I'd have had an AxeFX if it had been possible to buy one a few years ago, but it felt that they didn't want me to have one. Thus I waited and bought a Helix.

If Fractal can't be arsed to sell in my country (let alone offering a choice of retailers or the ability to try one out myself) then I don't think they deserve my money, even if they'd let me spend it with them.

And that is your right as a consumer just as it is their right as a manufacturer. For every 10 Sporkys who buy a rival product, there might be one who coverts the Fractal product and goes for that. Not every company has to operate the same way.

fretmeister

Heartfeltdawn said:

Sporky said:

digitalscream said:

by restricting availability, they're giving customers another reason not to buy their products.

I'd have had an AxeFX if it had been possible to buy one a few years ago, but it felt that they didn't want me to have one. Thus I waited and bought a Helix.

If Fractal can't be arsed to sell in my country (let alone offering a choice of retailers or the ability to try one out myself) then I don't think they deserve my money, even if they'd let me spend it with them.

And that is your right as a consumer just as it is their right as a manufacturer. So who suffers? For every 10 Sporkys who buy a rival product, there might be one who coverts the Fractal product and goes for that. 

1 sales conversion in 11 = bankruptcy in the long run.

Teetonetal

Only if you plan for 4 out of 11... 

Heartfeltdawn

fretmeister said:

The Kemper is probably different enough, but if I was Cliff - I'd be looking to sell up while I could get a good price for the company.

I wouldn't look to sell up yet. What I would be doing is developing a rival to Helix Native. Axe-FX Native would be a big talking point. 

guitarfishbay

fretmeister said:

Cliff can't claim to have the demonstrably "better" product anymore - personal choice is now the only difference.

The Kemper is probably different enough, but if I was Cliff - I'd be looking to sell up while I could get a good price for the company.

So why haven't we seen the big Fractal or Kemper endorsers jumping to Line 6?  Line 6 surely has more money for endorsement deals, in fact I'm pretty sure I've seen posts detailing nobody gets FAS products for free, but they do send a guy out to set it up for them.  Again no idea about Kemper's business practices.  Jimmy Eat World went all Fractal this year IIRC, surely they could've gone whatever way they wanted.



I've got to be honest there's as much buyer's justification going on with this board and the Helix as there is with Fractal products and the FAS board/Kemper with the Kemper board.  I'm yet to be convinced the Helix is on a level playing field with the Kemper or Fractal for some tones (and especially ones that matter to me), though it does win on price.  But I honestly only care that I'm using what I like and that I can recommend what I think is best for someone (and sometimes that is the Helix).

welshboyo

fretmeister said:

The LT could have a bit of an impact on used full fat prices.

I often see the full one listed at about £1000 or so used. If the loops and scribble strips aren't important then the number of potential buyers of the used one will drop quite a bit.

I wonder how many people use all the loops. The scribble strips are lovely, but at the same time 99% of us have managed without such things for decades.

I'm going to stick my neck out and predict that within 6 months the LT will outsell the main version.
And if the LT holds at about £850 new, then a used LT will probably sell at £550 ish, being about a third off.

That's amazing value for money. And if L6 churn them out as fast as Yamaha can manage - the competition is going to get bulldozed.

Cliff can't claim to have the demonstrably "better" product anymore - personal choice is now the only difference.

The Kemper is probably different enough, but if I was Cliff - I'd be looking to sell up while I could get a good price for the company.

Couldn't agree more - I too think (unfortunately) that the LT sales will outstrip the Full Fat Helix - unless there is something massive planned update-wise which is Full-Fat only?

gearaddict

Ooh...not good new for Headrush.

I'm thinking this is aimed more at the bedroom / occasionally gigging guitarist who maybe doesn't need something that is built to quite such a massively high standard. The casing and pedal are a bit cheaper I guess.

I suppose that might make me worry a little...I did see a few posts recently of people having to get their Helices (spot the geneticist!) fixed and if the LT isn't so robust then would it break? Probably not...the POD HD500 seems to be pretty sturdy and the Helix LT has to be better than that.

Heartfeltdawn

fretmeister said:

1 sales conversion in 11 = bankruptcy in the long run.

Bankruptcy in the long run with 1 in 11, no doubt, but I don't know his exact sales conversion so can't judge on that front. What can be judged is that a small company selling some fairly exclusive products has survived and thrived despite a really shitty recession and have gone on to develop new stuff.

guitarfishbay

Heartfeltdawn said:

fretmeister said:

1 sales conversion in 11 = bankruptcy in the long run.

Bankruptcy in the long run with 1 in 11, no doubt, but I don't know his exact sales conversion so can't judge on that front. What can be judged is that a small company selling some fairly exclusive products has survived and thrived despite a really shitty recession and have gone on to develop new stuff.

And again Sporky is repeating the same story from years ago (by his own admission), as if it still applies today now that he's no longer in the market having made his choice.

There is stock of the AX8, FX8, and Axe FX 2 at G66 at the time of posting.  It took me seconds to check this.  No Fractal still don't sell in shops.  But you can get one on 30 day returns so what's the difference for most people - you need a while with any digital unit anyway to work out how to use it and if you like it.

From the looks of it Fractal have planned to increase supply, given Cliff bought a new warehouse last year for cash.  But he's yet to invent time travel

gearaddict

guitarfishbay said:

Cliff bought a new warehouse last year for cash.  But he's yet to invent time travel

Cunt

stickyfiddle

Buying a warehouse for cash doesn't strike me as the best way to do business, in terms of cost efficiency. But anyway, I gotta say the Fractal stuff doesn't remotely appeal to me, regardless of price. 

What I really wanna know is the answer to my footswitch question  

fretmeister

guitarfishbay said:

fretmeister said:

Cliff can't claim to have the demonstrably "better" product anymore - personal choice is now the only difference.

The Kemper is probably different enough, but if I was Cliff - I'd be looking to sell up while I could get a good price for the company.

So why haven't we seen the big Fractal or Kemper endorsers jumping to Line 6?  Line 6 surely has more money for endorsement deals, in fact I'm pretty sure I've seen posts detailing nobody gets FAS products for free, but they do send a guy out to set it up for them.  Again no idea about Kemper's business practices.  Jimmy Eat World went all Fractal this year IIRC, surely they could've gone whatever way they wanted.



I've got to be honest there's as much buyer's justification going on with this board and the Helix as there is with Fractal products and the FAS board/Kemper with the Kemper board.  I'm yet to be convinced the Helix is on a level playing field with the Kemper or Fractal for some tones (and especially ones that matter to me), though it does win on price.  But I honestly only care that I'm using what I like and that I can recommend what I think is best for someone (and sometimes that is the Helix).

Maybe L6 are not needing endorsements at the moment. They are selling by the truck load. If you don't need to spend money on Superstar Jim then you don't.

It's also a different time. When Fractal came along most players experience of modelling was the early POD. Having Steve Vai put his name on a Fractal advert gets the average player realising that modelling has advanced significantly to the point where it is a professional product.

That approach isn't needed anymore. If a player is interested in modelling in the first place they now know the technology is up to the task. That wasn't the case when Fractal first appeared.

The fractal adverts still have loads of names on them, but the latest AX-FX with a footcontroller is £2514 (based on Euro exchange of 0.86) -v- £1487 for Helix Rack + the footcontroller.

Even if a buyer thinks the Fractal does a few things better (personal preference again) - how many of those buyers will drop an extra £1000 for the "missing" 2%. It's not the same sport as buying a Tube Screamer for £50 or £150. And extra £1000 is extra mortgage payment territory.

I was saving for the AX-FX and the Footcontroller when the Helix was announced. I expected the Helix to be very close to Fractal prices, and if it had been I would have bought the Fractal because I considered Fractal to be the industry leader.

Fractal is not on my radar anymore. Partly because of price - I just don't need to spend an extra £1000 to get the sounds I want, and partly because Cliff doesn't really seem that fussed about bass.

Sporky

guitarfishbay said:

And again Sporky is repeating the same story from years ago (by his own admission), as if it still applies today now that he's no longer in the market having made his choice.

My point is that how Fractal used to operate means I didn't even consider trying to buy one again when I went for the Helix last year. They had an opportunity to have me as a customer, and blew it so spectacularly that as far as I'm concerned Fractal isn't worth trying to buy - so it does still apply today.

I'm well aware that it's irrational, but consumers are irrational. Line6 will have lost potential Helix customers because of the waiting lists early on, but not for anything like the same period.

G66 may well have stock now, but I still can't try anything from Fractal at a UK retailer; it doesn't take me long to work out if I'm going to get on well with a multiFX/modeller - for me it's all about the user interface. They all sound good enough. Paying a foreign company and hoping they'll honour a return (when they couldn't be arsed to reply to multiple emails before) sounds like a stupid plan to me.

Yeah, boo hoo, one lost sale.

welshboyo

There are pro's and con's for both and I apologise for starting off the Line 6 vs Fractal argument which every thread ends up at..

Makes a change from the Dentist PRS jibs I suppose

stickyfiddle

welshboyo said:

There are pro's and con's for both and I apologise for starting off the Line 6 vs Fractal argument which every thread ends up at..

Let's settle it once and for all. Which one does Chappers prefer?

Bridgehouse

Getting back on the subject, one advantage for all Helix owners is a potentially much bigger user base, which means more budget in the developer pot for more updates - I would expect Line6 have an 'a' list of stuff they are prioritising, and a 'b' list of stuff they would love to do but fund aren't there or they are slower burn. I would expect that if LT is a success then more 'b' list items will get done - thus all Helix owners benefit massively.

I haven't bought a piece of tech before where updates have made such a big difference to an otherwise very good product.

guitarfishbay

fretmeister said:

Fractal is not on my radar anymore. Partly because of price - I just don't need to spend an extra £1000 to get the sounds I want, and partly because Cliff doesn't really seem that fussed about bass.

Yes there's a price difference and nobody will deny that.  If the Helix gets the sound you want then great.  I'm yet to hear the sounds I want so I'd still buy a Fractal unit over a Helix unit for recording with.  For playing live I'd pick the Helix.

Cliff and bass is an odd one - if you've seen a Fractal unit you'd see that all pedals can be bass pedals quite easily.  There are low and high pass feeds to the distortion models, 3 band eq with sweepable mids (in addition to the tone control), and blend.  The muff model sounds better than my bass muff deluxe.  However he's been slow to model 'name' bass gear.  A B7K model is on the way at some point, hopefully the L6 bass update will be a kick up his backside the same way Fractal was a kick up L6's backside (remember all previous L6 model packs were paid updates, FAS is up to 258 models on AX8/Axe FX 2).

I picked out Drew's real B7KU vs the Helix model via blind test on my iPad speaker, and even after he spent more time dialing them in (by this point I was using my monitors) I could pick it out from a blind test.  Apparently L6 have got a different revision B7K to what me and Drew have, and I strongly preferred the real pedal (it just cuts more aggressively).  So while I'd like Native I'm now not sure I'd use it over what I already have.  But that's my preference and someone else's is different

Teetonetal

stickyfiddle said:

welshboyo said:

There are pro's and con's for both and I apologise for starting off the Line 6 vs Fractal argument which every thread ends up at..

Let's settle it once and for all. Which one does Chappers prefer?

Kemper.

Garbage bought 30+ helices and I'm sure other groups use them too.

The which is better debate is completely irrelevant. 

The fact is that line 6 and fractal are very different companies producing similar products. Fractal have posed some serious questions to line 6, who imo have responded with 3 helix tech products.

The only winner is us.

Bridgehouse

I have to agree that we are the winners in this.

I plugged Helix into my bass head - power amp in, set up a bunch of patches with different bass preamps, and it was 95% like having a rack of 12 heads on top of the cab. For me, that's pretty much a complete win. 

Not to mention the interfacing, recording and practise flexibility... 

I'm not sure you could build a decent pedalboard for 900 quid these days....

guitarfishbay

Teetonetal said:

stickyfiddle said:

welshboyo said:

There are pro's and con's for both and I apologise for starting off the Line 6 vs Fractal argument which every thread ends up at..

Let's settle it once and for all. Which one does Chappers prefer?

Kemper.

Garbage bought 30+ helices and I'm sure other groups use them too.

The which is better debate is completely irrelevant. 

The fact is that line 6 and fractal are very different companies producing similar products. Fractal have posed some serious questions to line 6, who imo have responded with 3 helix tech products.

The only winner is us.

Worth noting that Garbage's drummer is Butch Vig... he produced Nevermind and Gish.

Agreed it's all good for the consumer.