Went looking for a new guitar, got legalese, T&Cs and a lot of gift vouchers

Teetonetal

darthed1981 said:

Teetonetal said:

Will say though that guitar guitar have no qualms about selling used internet returns as new gear... 

Isn't selling display items as "new" pretty much standard in shops?

I've never had a discount offered in PMT because something was out in the store, I always have to ask for a deal.

Maybe, but should it be? Strikes me that they get away with it a bit... Andertons for example always off if you want one from the warehouse vs the off the shelf guitar.

I've had a couple of things turn up from guitar guitar that look as if the were purchased from a thrift store.

darthed1981

Teetonetal said:

darthed1981 said:

Teetonetal said:

Will say though that guitar guitar have no qualms about selling used internet returns as new gear... 

Isn't selling display items as "new" pretty much standard in shops?

I've never had a discount offered in PMT because something was out in the store, I always have to ask for a deal.

Maybe, but should it be? Strikes me that they get away with it a bit... Andertons for example always off if you want one from the warehouse vs the off the shelf guitar.

I've had a couple of things turn up from guitar guitar that look as if the were purchased from a thrift store.

Well the latter is clearly not acceptable.

ICBM

darthed1981 said:

Teetonetal said:

Will say though that guitar guitar have no qualms about selling used internet returns as new gear... 

Isn't selling display items as "new" pretty much standard in shops?

It's not that, it's selling provably second hand - sold, then returned - items as new.

Selling an ex-display item as new is legal and correct because it has never been sold, even if it may no longer be in perfect condition. Selling a previously sold and returned item as new is not.

mudslide73

Guitar Guitar Bham have always been great with me pressure wise. I've tried loads of guitars but never bought from them. They're good for a coffee if the store is empty-ish too - they've left me alone with guitars for 30-40 mins only checking if I'm ok occasionally. I'll go there when I need something because I know I'll get left to choose in my own time.

impmann

ICBM said:

I would use the vouchers to buy the best deal on a second-hand guitar or amp that you can find in the shop, whether or not it's exactly what you want. Then give it a chance for a few weeks - sometimes you can find you like something better than you did initially, just as you have with the opposite - and if you don't get on with it, sell it privately for as close to the price as you can get. That gets you out of the situation with the least possible loss - or potentially, with something that you actually like.

I think this is the best advice I've seen here.

GG haven't done anything wrong, but they also have proved the reasons why chain shops aren't always the best place to buy things - despite the claims of lower prices.

TheBigDipper

Mooster said:

<snip>The reason I say shop in Coda Music or Peach Guitars is they can spot the difference between people taking the pi$$ and regular returning customers who don’t want to go through legalese and left high and dry. So they have their guitar back, my money in the kitty, and I’m left with a high value gift card with 12 month expiry.

I popped in to Peach a couple of weeks ago on my way home from friends in Essex. I haven't been to Peach since they had a small-ish place in a craft centre - at least 20 years ago. 

The new "on an industrial estate" facility is pretty impressive and very close to the A12 exit for Colchester FC. They were still building the downstairs performance area, but I got a very friendly tour with the boss, even though I explained I wasn't thinking of buying anything and just being nosey. He's justifiably proud of what they're doing and I hope they do well.

Lots (and I mean lots) of high end gear on display. A "destination" shop rather than a local music store.

Voxman

Regardless of the morality/legality perspectives your choice is simple. Accept it, or fight your corner as per my previous post. Putting things formally in writing, & sending recorded delivery, makes a difference because they'd have to decline and give their reasons in writing!  They risk you posting that response on line, and potentially deterring customers - its not defamation, because they've written it!  They also might write something wrong, that in turn might aid you. 

This is your call - if this was a couple of hundred, its one thing - but we're talking £1,400 here...that's a lot of money! 

RiftAmps

Did you buy it using a credit card? You might be able to hand the guitar back and get the CC company to fight the refund on your behalf.

Voxman

RiftAmps said:

Did you buy it using a credit card? You might be able to hand the guitar back and get the CC company to fight the refund on your behalf.

The guitar has been returned I believe, hence the vouchers.  But an interesting thought that might well set the cat amongst the pigeons!  If it was me, I'd do everything possible to get the cash back.

As an observation, one thing that I've seen some businesses do generally in this type of situation, and its in their T&C's, is allow a cash refund but apply a reasonable 10% 're-stocking' fee (eg in first 14 days) as a deterrent for people abusing their good will.  At least that's a fairer approach for this type of scenario.

richardhomer

So just to clarify - the received Fretboard wisdom is:

1) Full cash refund - even though the buyer had simply changed his mind

2) Any subsequent buyer should pay less, because the item isn't technically new - even though the lack of 'newness' isn't the stores fault?

Perhaps shops should from here on in be considered lending libraries?

I'm glad I'm not a retailer....

olafgarten

Voxman said:

RiftAmps said:

Did you buy it using a credit card? You might be able to hand the guitar back and get the CC company to fight the refund on your behalf.

The guitar has been returned I believe, hence the vouchers.  But an interesting thought that might well set the cat amongst the pigeons!  If it was me, I'd do everything possible to get the cash back.

As an observation, one thing that I've seen some businesses do generally in this type of situation, and its in their T&C's, is allow a cash refund but apply a reasonable 10% 're-stocking' fee (eg in first 14 days) as a deterrent for people abusing their good will.  At least that's a fairer approach for this type of scenario.

That's probably a good idea, if I ran a Guitar Store, then I'd do a full inspection to make sure it's free of damage and offer the full price in gift vouchers or with a percentage off and a straight refund.

It's all about Customer Conversion, you have to accept some slight losses to gain loyal customers.

Voxman

richardhomer said:

So just to clarify - the received Fretboard wisdom is:

1) Full cash refund - even though the buyer had simply changed his mind

2) Any subsequent buyer should pay less, because the item isn't technically new - even though the lack of 'newness' isn't the stores fault?

Perhaps shops should from here on in be considered lending libraries?

I'm glad I'm not a retailer....

It is a difficult conundrum I agree.  Stores do need to protect themselves against 'chancers/abusers' and they're in business to make a profit.  But there is a growing trend with the bigger stores to recognise that a bit of sensible flexibility can go a long way and that buyers can make genuine mistakes.  Many of the 'big boys' are going above and beyond the mere 'legal' position to help make customers feel more comfortable in buying particularly when making bigger purchases. The logic is, no surprise, that if customers have greater comfort from the store's return policy they'll be more likely to buy, & the chances are they'll be future customers too (even if not this time).  For example (all assuming goods returned in perfect condition etc):

Andertons - accept returns on store purchases for full refunds within 14 days
GAK - as above for 7 days, then vouchers thereafter up to 30 days.
Dawsons -  have a 'goodwill refund policy' up to 35 days (see T&C's)
PMT - if I'm reading their T&C correctly, looks like they accept returns of unwanted items for a full refund, within 14 days whether bought in store or on-line.
Peach Guitars - Peach reserves the right to make a re-stocking charge for non-faulty returns, but custom order/custom made to order items can only be returned if faulty, which is fair enough. 

Mooster

I don't think retailers should be lending libraries but disputes should be done in a case by case basis. Bear in mind that the guitar was returned flawless and I would have agreed that if it was anything less than as-new condition then it would be unrefundable. I assure you the retailer is not out of pocket because they have a Martin 000-15M to sell brand new and have made a sale on £1,399 in gift vouchers. In addition I tried my best to find a guitar to exchange, going back twice in store to resolve the matter. They admitted that what I was looking for wasn't in store. Finally they have customer records that show that I have made many purchases with them previously including a £3k Suhr and have never returned anything until now.

jellyroll

Perhaps its the surprise that's partly the issue here.

I bought an expensive guitar last week and the retailer made it clear to me that if I didn't like it when I tried it at home I could return it for another guitar but that they wouldn't give me a refund.

Perhaps if that had been known to the OP, he might feel differently now.

Voxman

Mooster said:

I don't think retailers should be lending libraries but disputes should be done in a case by case basis. Bear in mind that the guitar was returned flawless and I would have agreed that if it was anything less than as-new condition then it would be unrefundable. I assure you the retailer is not out of pocket because they have a Martin 000-15M to sell brand new and have made a sale on £1,399 in gift vouchers. In addition I tried my best to find a guitar to exchange, going back twice in store to resolve the matter. They admitted that what I was looking for wasn't in store. Finally they have customer records that show that I have made many purchases with them previously including a £3k Suhr and have never returned anything until now.

I do feel that Guitar Guitar really should be adopting a more flexible approach. It's an ever more competitive world out there and my view is that with similar products being sold in store and ever-more competition from websites, its the stores who differentiate themselves with a better customer 'USP', who go the extra mile on customer service, who act not just legally (which is expected) but positively and fairly to enhance their image and build confidence with customers, that will have the greatest levels of success.  

Who knows, perhaps Guitar Guitar will read this thread and reconsider their stance! 

Dave_Mc

^ Yeah. Legally they don't have to refund, but to keep someone who's bought lots of expensive stuff from them already happy, it might be more sensible to keep that customer happy. Especially since (a) they didn't have something at his price range in store, (b) from what @Mooster says, it wasn't made clear on the website that the T&Cs applied only to online purchases and (c) the director accused him of something he hadn't done (using it like a lending library when he'd bought several things from them before and hadn't returned them).

Sporky said:

Yes - Andertons do.

Wow, that's pretty good. I know on some of the other more USA-centric guitar forums I post on, people are always saying that lots of stores let you return even in-store purchases for a refund if you change your mind, but I thought no stores here let you do that. That's pretty sweet if at least one here does.

mr-mac said:

If I go in any shop for anything if I get the person/people annoying me every few seconds I just walk out and go somewhere else.  Customer service is important and a quick check in and I'll pop back in 20-30min but if you want anything just shout is good to me.  Pestering every two min is never gonna get someone to relax and bond with guitar.  Which is what you need them to do.

Agreed- however, there's a bit of a flaw in that plan, at least around here. The shops here seem to have taken to hanging their guitars on lockable hangers. So if the salesperson goes away for 20 minutes I might be lumbered playing a guitar I knew within 2 minutes I didn't like, but if he/she hangs around it's also annoying.

I really don't like those locking hangers. It doesn't help that some of the sales assistants act like you asked them for a kidney when you ask to try a guitar, because they have to climb all the way up there to unlock the hanger.

I mean, I didn't lock them. I'd prefer they be unlocked.

Brize said:

Mooster said:

Around a year ago I bought a couple of Echopark pedals from Coda Music under too much giddy enthusiasm and when I went home I realized that the fuzz was untamable and the boost didn't suit my rig. I drove straight back and Doug said, "No worries, mate. We'll credit back to your card." He didn't have to but there is top notch customer service out there.

Yep, Coda are exceptional when it comes to that sort of thing and that's why practically everyone on this board that's dealt with them has good things to say.

Guitar Guitar are a different type of company - multiple sites, big retail spaces, massive overheads, etc. You'll also be dealing with staff who are just following rules, rather than the guvnor who can take a view on things.

Treat it as a lesson learned. In future, try not to be pressured into buying something that you're not sure of, possibly by leaving the store to grab a drink while you think about it. If you're unsure, go home and buy online so you can return the product for a full refund.

Yeah because alcohol will improve your decision-making ability!

Jack_

I fought the store and the store won.

prowla

Well, the shop behaved within its rights.

However, the consideration they have neglected is customer goodwill/loyalty.

Next time around, after the £1400 gift vouchers have been used, will you shop there again?

Also a note of caution on gift vouchers - remember you have no recourse if the shop goes under before you spend them!

barnstorm

I'll add to this that I once fancied a FSR on the G&G site. They had one left in stock and I would have pulled the trigger had I not read a NGD review in which the disappointed buyer explained he'd be returning the guitar as it was damaged. To G&G... I emailed for confirmation that the guitar left in stock was the damaged example. Wasn't until I did so that they added the relevant information to the site. I have had other, better experiences with them, however.

fandango

prowla said:

Well, the shop behaved within its rights.

However, the consideration they have neglected is customer goodwill/loyalty.

Next time around, after the £1400 gift vouchers have been used, will you shop there again?

Also a note of caution on gift vouchers - remember you have no recourse if the shop goes under before you spend them!

Or if they expire before they are used.

Surely the OP can find something at GG??? Maybe add some more money to the vouchers to expand the range of options above the original price point.

11 months or so ..... glued to GG's website ...