Went looking for a new guitar, got legalese, T&Cs and a lot of gift vouchers

Nick

I have worked with pushy commission-based sales guys, and they do nothing for the good of the store.

 I would say however that most "pushy" sales people are generally well-meaning but posses poor sales technique. Meaning they are trying to offer what they think is great customer service, but in reality are doing the opposite by annoying the customer.

Gadget

Nick said:

I have worked with pushy commission-based sales guys, and they do nothing for the good of the store.

 I would say however that most "pushy" sales people are generally well-meaning but posses poor sales technique. Meaning they are trying to offer what they think is great customer service, but in reality are doing the opposite by annoying the customer.

And in their defence, a lot of them are probably pushed to do it by their managers... you know, a "don't just stand around gawping lad - engage - sell sell sell - close the sale!..." kind of mentality.

Stuckfast

OT but I remember going into a guitar shop in Birmingham many years ago and asking if I could have a go on a second-hand pedal steel guitar that was sitting around. The sales assistant said 'Sure,' and then started looking at it in a concerned way. 'Blimey, the action's a bit high isn't it? We'll have to do something about that...'

Dave_Mc

Mooster said:

To be clear and fair to GG, they have honored their policy so there is no bad business practice here. As I said earlier, I was more surprised at their policy because I used to shop elsewhere and their policy was the same between online / physical sales. The point is to bear this in mind if you do business with them.

As for the confusion on T&Cs, the only place to read their T&Cs on their website. But their T&Cs on their website is only for their online sales. So there is no-where to read their T&Cs for in-store sales, I only understood this via talking to them and them retorting "ah, but that's just for online sales you see..." Yes, within the small text it is outlined but you have to study it like a hawk.

To cut a long story short, I've shopped with Coda for almost 7 years and I have no clue what their T&C policies are. I do know that if I have an issue I can talk to Doug and he can make a call there and then.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. Yeah, I see what you mean.

olafgarten

At least your experience wasn't as bad as one guy I remember on Facebook, his post ended with "and then he put me in a headlock". It wasn't GG though.

rico

I went to GG Epsom a few months ago to get a pedal (would have gone to Andertons but they don't stock it) and have a brief look around and picked up a few 2017 Les Paul's and each was so poorly set up it was embarrassing. 

Anyway the pedal I wanted was priced at £40 or so more than the online price - the price was corrected and I asked if he could chuck in some strings or a couple of plectrums but he said 'sorry mate we've just discounted it from the online price' - eh!? Then he spouted some crap about negative profit on this pedal as if he was doing me a favour letting me have it for the online price.

I won't go there again unless I need some strings etc as a last resort.  

Powerslave

To the OP, be careful if you do opt to drop your vouchers for an on-line purchase with a view to returning the item if it doesn't suit (and, in turn, be re-credited with your vouchers - less any shipping, perhaps).

I returned an item to GG just recently. Overall, the process went well (although I returned the item in person - a fair return drive in a day for me). However, at the point where I initially requested the return (via e-mail, as per  GG instructions) I was given the chance of an exchange (Is there something else you'd like to try instead, ...?) . But, within the T&C's, it was indicated that any such exchange item would not then be covered by distance buying return policy - I'd be stuck with it, end of. No more returns or exchanges.

You might want to check how you stand in this regard - have you already used up your one life (at least in their eyes) through the return of the original guitar?

Not necessarily saying this is "sly" on the part of GG, just something to be aware of beforehand.

Good luck . . .

Dave_Mc

^ That would definitely be worth bearing in mind.

I wonder if that's even legal? I can't remember reading anything about only having "one life" when I read up about the new consumer contracts law when it came out. The second item you get has been no more tested than the first.

JMP220478

I wonder how much this thread has cost GG and indeed what Coda / Andertons / Peach have now gained as a result ?....

perhaps a simple dealer ratings thread - do we have one on here ? ( if not it might give some leverage to the good folk of TFB - perhaps even some discount or a TFB approval scheme ?)

I know we have recommendations for builders / repairs etc 

Musicman20

JMP220478 said:

I wonder how much this thread has cost GG and indeed what Coda / Andertons / Peach have now gained as a result ?....

perhaps a simple dealer ratings thread - do we have one on here ? ( if not it might give some leverage to the good folk of TFB - perhaps even some discount or a TFB approval scheme ?)

I know we have recommendations for builders / repairs etc 

Exactly. I always try and give stores another chance and almost went back to GG last week. Nope....I re-read this just before and thought it wasn't worth the hassle.

Does anyone know if GG list customer return items as 'available for pre-order?'

Voxman

I have to admit that after reading this thread and quite a few others I've read about GG customer service, I'm unlikely now to ever buy anything from them.  I'm sure they have many loyal and repeat customers who are very pleased with their service, but even if these types of posts are 'exceptions' they do tend to indicate a 'pattern' and are a strong indicator of the mindset of those in charge - and its all about customer perception.  

In this day and age of fierce store & on-line competition, I think its the stores that go the extra mile that will be the longer term winners..ie those who recognise that it's more than just staying within legal parameters, but demonstrating flexibility & common sense.

IMHO this particular issue for this particular customer should never have happened.  GG knew this was a valued repeat customer who had spent thousands of pounds with them, and whilst of course they should encourage the customer to choose something else, a full cash refund should have been offered immediately it became clear the customer couldn't find what they wanted.  The OP would then likely have come on here to praise how great they were even though they weren't under any obligation to do this, and that he felt valued and that his customer loyalty was recognised.

Instead, they've damaged themselves and I know for a fact that GG has been watching this thread.  If I had been their Manager/Director I'd have got back to the customer and been on here like a shot.  I'd have confirmed that they recognised this was a good repeat customer who deserved more flexible treatment, and immediately offer a full cash refund & acknowledge this didn't fall into the same category as those that might abuse their good will.  They may believe offering vouchers did this but if they knew the customer wasn't happy with this they should have used common sense to solve the matter.  

If I was a Director of GG, I'd also consider the long rather than the short game - I'd immediately review what other big stores do, review and update my store policy accordingly, & publicly announce any changes here eg 7 days to return & gain full refund etc.  This would demonstrate that GG do value customer feedback, that they do understand what competitors do, that they value and listen to customer feedback, and that they are not intransigent.  In other words, turning a negative situation into a positive opportunity.  And by having someone on the forum they could pick-up on and comment/address any customer issues that might arise.  In my book that's how you grow image, develop positive recommendation, grow your client base, and build long term customer loyalty.  

In short, IMHO thy didn't handle this as well as they could and (frankly) should have.  

Thus endeth the lesson! 

UnclePsychosis

That's all well and good @voxman but if I was in charge of guitarguitar in not sure that I would actually *want* to offer a 7 day "full refund" clause. 

Frankly, having spent time around guitarists I'm not convinced that it's a particularly good idea - I think the numbers of people who would abuse such a thing are probably a lot higher than many of us would like to admit. And yes, I know DSRs are basically the same thing but to be perfectly blunt if someone's played it in the shop why exactly should I be taking a hit when they decide to bring it back a week later? 

Dave_Mc

^^ (@Voxman ) Briiliant post, agreed 100%.

I love it when stores play the "legal" card. As a customer, legally I don't have to buy from anyone, for whatever reason I want (even no reason, or a wrong reason), so I guess stores that play the "legal" card are happy enough when the shoe is on the other foot if I don't buy from them because "legally I don't have to"?

Voxman

UnclePsychosis said:

That's all well and good @voxman but if I was in charge of guitarguitar in not sure that I would actually *want* to offer a 7 day "full refund" clause. 

Frankly, having spent time around guitarists I'm not convinced that it's a particularly good idea - I think the numbers of people who would abuse such a thing are probably a lot higher than many of us would like to admit. And yes, I know DSRs are basically the same thing but to be perfectly blunt if someone's played it in the shop why exactly should I be taking a hit when they decide to bring it back a week later? 

That was an example only - if you look back on the thread, you'll see I flagged different approaches inc one store that gives a full refund but 'reserves its rights' to deduct a restocking fee.  Replicated below for convenience:

It is a difficult conundrum I agree.  Stores do need to protect themselves against 'chancers/abusers' and they're in business to make a profit.  But there is a growing trend with the bigger stores to recognise that a bit of sensible flexibility can go a long way and that buyers can make genuine mistakes.  Many of the 'big boys' are going above and beyond the mere 'legal' position to help make customers feel more comfortable in buying particularly when making bigger purchases. The logic is, no surprise, that if customers have greater comfort from the store's return policy they'll be more likely to buy, & the chances are they'll be future customers too (even if not this time).  For example (all assuming goods returned in perfect condition etc):

Andertons - accept returns on store purchases for full refunds within 14 days
GAK - as above for 7 days, then vouchers thereafter up to 30 days.
Dawsons -  have a 'goodwill refund policy' up to 35 days (see T&C's)
PMT - if I'm reading their T&C correctly, looks like they accept returns of unwanted items for a full refund, within 14 days whether bought in store or on-line.
Peach Guitars - Peach reserves the right to make a re-stocking charge for non-faulty returns, but custom order/custom made to order items can only be returned if faulty, which is fair enough. 

Each store must of course decide how best they run their business.  All I'm saying is that if you don't have a more flexible official policy, you run a business risk of losing customers to stores that do - if stores feel that their approach is the best fit financially for their business model, then that's fine.  But its very difficult to change customer perceptions, its a challenging task to build true customer loyalty, and internet platforms like this mean that 'messages' (both positive & negative) can get out there very quickly.  In a tough market place it would be unwise for any business not to be mindful of all this, and prudent to regularly review their operation to ensure that their approach remains appropriate for them.  

I have no idea of course as to what GG may or may not do here, and that's for them to decide.  But bear in mind that this thread is fundamentally from a consumer, not a store owners, perspective. And its we consumers that provide income to the stores and we consumers that choose what we buy, when we buy, and who we wish to buy from.  Geographical considerations aside, if two stores are selling similar items at similar cost either in store or on-line, surely its our perception and 'comfort' feel regarding customer service and 'customer experience' that's going to be the deciding factor, together with any special 'USP' that the store might have?  

We all make judgements either based on what we perceive happens to others, what we read, or our own personal experience. To further emphasise the point some stores even offer their own free extended warranty regardless of manufacturer warranty eg DV247 give a 3 year warranty (it used to be 4) - and before anyone slams DV247 (yes, I know the history here) I've bought gear from them (even after the 'debacle') and have used their in-store warranty, and had fabulous service from them - so I wouldn't hesitate in buying from them again.  

chris45

I was going to post a separate thread about my experience over the last month of GG and Andertons as a compare and contrast but here seems a good place!
GG is my local store and they were showing online as having a Helix in stock.  I had the time to go down and pick it up that day so I did.  The salesman was packing it away and then I spotted that it was display / ex demo etc and I said actually I would like an unopened one which to be fair they ordered for me but they didn't tell me this before I spotted it.
A few weeks later I went to the Andertons web site to buy some DBR speakers and they were showing them in stock, so I ordered online.  A few hours later I got a call from Andertons saying that the ones they had left were on display, and a bit marked so apologies but you'll have to wait for stock to come in; and they came a bit later.  Guess who I rate higher on customer service and where I will be shopping in the future although its 100s of miles away from the local store.  In fact I am just annoyed with myself that I didn't just say no thanks at GG and just ordered the Helix online.
And to echo @Voxman:  GG haven't done anything illegal but I would think that middle aged blokes (definitely me - maybe the OP!) spending 1k plus are prime candidates for repeat business that's just going elsewhere as a result of a bit of flexibility and old fashioned customer service.

darthed1981

Voxman said:

Instead, they've damaged themselves and I know for a fact that GG has been watching this thread. 

@Voxman OK, I'll bite, how do you know that?

This forum is popular, the guitarist community is smaller than we sometimes think, I wonder how many threads bashing certain stores etc. actually get viewed by those involved?

Dave_Mc

Oof, I got ninjaed up there- when I said I agreed 100% with that brilliant post, I meant @Voxman 's. And also your more recent post as well. Also I agree with @chris45 's excellent post.

UnclePsychosis said:

That's all well and good @voxman but if I was in charge of guitarguitar in not sure that I would actually *want* to offer a 7 day "full refund" clause. 

Frankly, having spent time around guitarists I'm not convinced that it's a particularly good idea - I think the numbers of people who would abuse such a thing are probably a lot higher than many of us would like to admit. And yes, I know DSRs are basically the same thing but to be perfectly blunt if someone's played it in the shop why exactly should I be taking a hit when they decide to bring it back a week later?

I'm not sure. As with most other stores and products (not just guitar), I suspect they're getting far more sales as a result which would make it worth while.

For example, clothes shops (at least the bigger chains) routinely now offer 30 day returns even if you buy in store. I was never much keen on changing rooms, so now I can buy stuff without trying it and return it if it doesn't fit. End result- I buy tons more stuff and return very little of it (it's a real pain returning stuff so I still only buy stuff that I suspect will fit).

Also, maybe knowing that they offered a return policy might actually encourage shops to stop trying to twist your arm into buying the thing before you've decided for sure, and actually let you try the guitars out properly with less of the hard sell. I was trying to buy an acoustic fairly recently and eventually more or less gave up when (not all of the stores, to be fair, but unfortunately the one which was the only local dealer of the guitars I liked best!) it became clear I couldn't get to try the things to my satisfaction.

To clarify (and I realise I've mentioned this before), this is not me wanting to try a guitar for 5 hours. This was me asking to try a J-35 and being told, "Don't try that, try this J-45 instead, you'll like it more."

(I was going to try the J-45 immediately afterwards. And the J-45 was a good bit dearer, which I don't think was a coincidence.)

Jez6345789

Hi dont really want to be defending GG here as they are not the style of store I like to visit. 
And the policy is one that smacks of one of so many meetings I have sat in over the years where some bright spark thinks he has found the way to make the company more money buy not letting this happen its cost us money blah blah. Director has gone right well lets stop it then and a load of yes men managers have gone ok. 

In this day and age in the UK the biggest problem with so many business is the word manager is much over used and refers to the guy who gets all the grief and no control over his own destiny. A manger should ultimately be capable of running a store achieving the companies financial objectives and tasked and targeted to do it. Sadly the mantra in most business these days is to over control and micro manager a store or whatever and come up with solutions to take away fundamental abilities like the manager knowing you are a good customer and not yanking his chain can issue a refund or get authority to do it on his say so. Ultimately it would be reflected in the results he is targeted with and he makes the call to keep his customer service first class so you come back. 

All that said I see the retailer side that in this day and age people are very much spoilt brats from buying online where companies looking to build online businesses are pretty much saving you money and like Amazon if you are unhappy with the product will send 6 dancing girls and dwarf to make you buy again from Amazon. When online has killed retail this will all change. 

So in reality the customer in so many situations is an over expectant diva, 

But buyers remorse is always the same and ultimately their job is to sell you a guitar and take money from you. Getting home and changing your mind is not really part of the transaction and ultimately why should the store lose a sale. 

Also you are a grown up and if you say yes then it should mean yes heres my card take my money. Or if you are unsure simply walk away. Selling guitars is not exactly pressure selling yes they are trying to get you over the line but its not 80's time share. 

I recently got totally giddy over the Private Stock PRS I bought not been like that over a guitar for years. But asked would they hold it till tomorrow got in the car rationalised it scraped up the dosh decide I wanted it rang them and said I would pick it up after lunch. Played it again loved it so put my money down. What i am trying to say is if you get caught up in stuff know yourself and walk away. 

So in the end it is not the way in the modern world and if I was running a store as long as the guitar was as it left I would probably look to want to keep you as a customer and look after you.

But in someways they did more than they had to, and if by chance I came in the next day wanting to buy just one of those Martins they would of lost two sales. 

Sorry for the rant 

Voxman

Jez6345789 said:

All that said I see the retailer side that in this day and age people are very much spoilt brats from buying online where companies looking to build online businesses are pretty much saving you money and like Amazon if you are unhappy with the product will send 6 dancing girls and dwarf to make you buy again from Amazon. When online has killed retail this will all change.  So in reality the customer in so many situations is an over expectant diva,

Sorry, but that's absolute nonsense. On-line developed because of technology impacting on how customers buy goods.  The pressures and stresses of daily living, the demands on people who are having to commute and work ridiculously long hours, has meant this is the only practical way a lot of people have time to buy goods.  But stores have reaped dividends because they suddenly had a HUGE potential customer base - not just those that walked in off the street. They often shut down stores, reduced employee numbers, substantially reduced their overheads on salaries, employer NIC, pension contributions etc and significantly upped their profits.  But it meant greater competition and that factor won't change, so if on-line service deteriorates, customer backlash will hit hard - plus of course they have significant consumer rights anyway.  The 'location' of sales might change, but customer service (albeit with a changed dynamic) if anything will actually improve because that will be the only differentiating factor.  I come from the financial services sector, and aside from fee costs its service levels & USP's that differentiate advisory firms.

But buyers remorse is always the same and ultimately their job is to sell you a guitar and take money from you. Getting home and changing your mind is not really part of the transaction and ultimately why should the store lose a sale. Also you are a grown up and if you say yes then it should mean yes heres my card take my money. Or if you are unsure simply walk away. Selling guitars is not exactly pressure selling yes they are trying to get you over the line but its not 80's time share. 

As I mentioned in previous posts, many stores now appreciate that the restrictions of hearing and playing instruments in-store can sometimes mean that when played through the customers own gear, or an acoustic played in their own living room, won't feel and sound as they first thought. This isn't buyer's remorse but a reality check. That's why so many stores are now offering a return & refund policy to encourage longer term customer loyalty and confidence and making on-line and in-store purchases more of a level playing field.  

Do you honestly think for one moment that the music store 'big boys' haven't undertaken serious independent third party research on this to 'test' the premise of shop refunds - and do you honestly think they would be doing this unless it was absolutely proved to be beneficial for their business and that this continues to be the case?  

If firms don't want to do this that's fine - but as I said earlier, they then risk losing customer confidence and overall sales.  Businesses are big enough and ugly enough to look after themselves and to decide whether to allow some flexibility with minimal, no, or even positive impact on their businesses. An individual who has been saving up to buy a piece of gear often has little financial flexibility and if they get it wrong, then this can have a damaging impact and create resentment such that next time the customer only buys on line or from a store with a more flexible store refund policy.   

57Deluxe

Order a new rig from Thomann - do a months worth of gigs with it and return it!