The Theresa May General Election thread (edited)

Heartfeltdawn

richardhomer said:

octatonic said:

Theresa May being absent for tonight's debate is a massive strategic error.

I'm not sure it is. It seems to me that she has a David Brentesque disconnect between her self-perception and that of everyone else. 

In anything other that set pieces - and she's not great at those - she's incapable of delivering any level of well-argued rationale. Perhaps she's gained enough insight into her own short-comings that she knows she'd get destroyed and thought her absence would be less harmful than being shown up again.

Whether I'm right or not - it's incompatible with her 'Strong and stable' mantra - which looked like a meaningless sound-bite, even before her climb-down on the Dementia Tax. 

In the last week we've heard all manner of politicians coming out with the 'do not show fear' mantra in the wake of a terrorist incident and here is our Prime Minister, unable to face a relatively benign studio audience. It doesn't look principled. It looks churlish. Whether she likes it or not, televised debates are now part of the elective process. Instead of kissing babies, you're facing the cameras in this format. 
 
Now if this were an isolated incident, she might get some shrift. It isn't. She's been kept in a glass cabinet throughout the entire sodding campaign, being let out to address mostly Conservative groups across the country with no fanfare (her visits here in Bristol have been incredibly low key affairs). 

cruxiform

Jezza rocked the crowd. 

octatonic

Tim Farron has slightly won me back but Jezza clearly kicked ass.
Rudd looked out of her depth.
SNP and PC came across fairly well too.
Lucas did ok but it was typical Greens.
Nutall looked like, well... as you would expect.

Moe_Zambeek

I was quite chuffed when she said she wouldnt do them and Labour agreed; I was hoping we'd see an end to the tedious sight of multiple personality vacuums shouting over each other while the punditry commented on how sweaty they looked. As far as I can tell they're conducted for the benefit of the broadcasters. 

Bread and circuses for the Twitter age.

Limehouse_Blues

ToneControl said:

Fretwired said:

ToneControl said:

Fretwired said:

Jalapeno said:

But Soviet 5yr plans are a by-word for failure - they never delivered

I think you'll find they did. A lot of people died along the way but Russia went from being backward to being an industrial giant.

eh?
for what industrial products do they dominate supply in the world market?

What? Russia went from a poor backward country to an industrial giant in little over 15 years. They didn't make consumer shit for the west. The country was electrified, railways were built (have you seen the size of the place), factories were built that made goods that Russia needed - cars, trucks, tractors, planes etc. As the Germans found out the Russian armaments industry quickly outstripped the German one. Even now Russia exports loads of things - they are one of the biggest arms exporters in the world along with oil and gas. Go check out Stalin's industrial plan - it scared the shit out of the Americans and the Germans for that matter.

have you been there?
I have
it's a disaster
80% of the country's income was from oil
as soon as oil prices dropped, they were in very deep shit

their agriculture was and is so poorly managed, a lot of food rotted before it could be distributed
they  import vast amounts of food - #3 in the world
https://www.quora.com/Why-does-Russia-import-40-of-its-food
even though there is very little industry

Moscow looks like a giant version of Brum
lots of ugly Brutalist concrete architecture
outside that, the poverty is like a documentary from the 19th century
most men never collect a pension because they die young, it is really horrible there

St Petersburg which should be the Jewel in the crown, had not recovered from ww2 when i went in 2006
the poverty is beyond the comprehension of westerners
my mate, a lecturer at a uni in Bratislava, had a one-bed flat with his wife and child, and his granny would turn up in the evening and sleep on the floor in the front room

Their engineering is a piss-poor copy of the west, I went round the space museum, and it was scary - i could not believe they sent people up in those things

oil and gas are the only things they export except to poor, client states: their aerospace and car industries are decades behind the rest of the G7

In short, they are a poor, backward country now

do you know how poor?
Russia has the 12th highest GDP, just behind South Korea, just above Oz

 United States 18,569,100

2 China[n 2] 11,218,281

3 Japan 4,938,644

4 Germany 3,466,639

5 United Kingdom 2,629,188

6 France 2,463,222

7 India 2,256,397

8 Italy 1,850,735

9 Brazil 1,798,622

10 Canada 1,529,224

11 South Korea 1,411,246

12 Russia 1,280,731

13 Australia 1,258,978

14 Spain 1,232,597

15 Mexico 1,046,002

16 Indonesia 932,448

17 Turkey 857,429

18 Netherlands 771,163

by capita, they are 67th, 
after Venuzuala, Romania, Equitorial Guinea, etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

The USA GDP is 14 times larger
UK GDP is more than twice that of Russia, with less than half the population

How can you say it's an industrial giant?
S. Korea is richer, with a 51m population, against Russia's 144m

All good points. But lest we guitarists forget that Russia is an important supplier of vacuum tubes and paper in oil, military grade capacitors! 

seriously though you're right. Russia is an economic basket case with politics to match.

ICBM

Limehouse_Blues said:

seriously though you're right. Russia is an economic basket case with politics to match.

It is now. That's due to twenty years of corrupt mismanagement under Brezhnev, followed by the chaotic final years of the Soviet Union, a poorly-implemented conversion to capitalism, the wholesale theft of national assets by a tiny circle of opportunists, and finally rule by a paranoid semi-dictatorship.

But the USSR under Khrushchev was a military and technological superpower of an almost equal standing to the USA, which beat the US in space exploration not once but several times (first satellite, first man in space, first spacecraft to orbit the Moon, and more), even though it's true that their domestic economy never matched it.

octatonic

Limehouse_Blues said:

ToneControl said:

Fretwired said:

ToneControl said:

Fretwired said:

Jalapeno said:

But Soviet 5yr plans are a by-word for failure - they never delivered

I think you'll find they did. A lot of people died along the way but Russia went from being backward to being an industrial giant.

eh?
for what industrial products do they dominate supply in the world market?

What? Russia went from a poor backward country to an industrial giant in little over 15 years. They didn't make consumer shit for the west. The country was electrified, railways were built (have you seen the size of the place), factories were built that made goods that Russia needed - cars, trucks, tractors, planes etc. As the Germans found out the Russian armaments industry quickly outstripped the German one. Even now Russia exports loads of things - they are one of the biggest arms exporters in the world along with oil and gas. Go check out Stalin's industrial plan - it scared the shit out of the Americans and the Germans for that matter.

have you been there?
I have
it's a disaster
80% of the country's income was from oil
as soon as oil prices dropped, they were in very deep shit

their agriculture was and is so poorly managed, a lot of food rotted before it could be distributed
they  import vast amounts of food - #3 in the world
https://www.quora.com/Why-does-Russia-import-40-of-its-food
even though there is very little industry

Moscow looks like a giant version of Brum
lots of ugly Brutalist concrete architecture
outside that, the poverty is like a documentary from the 19th century
most men never collect a pension because they die young, it is really horrible there

St Petersburg which should be the Jewel in the crown, had not recovered from ww2 when i went in 2006
the poverty is beyond the comprehension of westerners
my mate, a lecturer at a uni in Bratislava, had a one-bed flat with his wife and child, and his granny would turn up in the evening and sleep on the floor in the front room

Their engineering is a piss-poor copy of the west, I went round the space museum, and it was scary - i could not believe they sent people up in those things

oil and gas are the only things they export except to poor, client states: their aerospace and car industries are decades behind the rest of the G7

In short, they are a poor, backward country now

do you know how poor?
Russia has the 12th highest GDP, just behind South Korea, just above Oz

 United States 18,569,100

2 China[n 2] 11,218,281

3 Japan 4,938,644

4 Germany 3,466,639

5 United Kingdom 2,629,188

6 France 2,463,222

7 India 2,256,397

8 Italy 1,850,735

9 Brazil 1,798,622

10 Canada 1,529,224

11 South Korea 1,411,246

12 Russia 1,280,731

13 Australia 1,258,978

14 Spain 1,232,597

15 Mexico 1,046,002

16 Indonesia 932,448

17 Turkey 857,429

18 Netherlands 771,163

by capita, they are 67th, 
after Venuzuala, Romania, Equitorial Guinea, etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

The USA GDP is 14 times larger
UK GDP is more than twice that of Russia, with less than half the population

How can you say it's an industrial giant?
S. Korea is richer, with a 51m population, against Russia's 144m

All good points. But lest we guitarists forget that Russia is an important supplier of vacuum tubes and paper in oil, military grade capacitors! 

seriously though you're right. Russia is an economic basket case with politics to match.

and 50% of Big Muffs.

ToneControl

ICBM said:

Limehouse_Blues said:

seriously though you're right. Russia is an economic basket case with politics to match.

It is now. That's due to twenty years of corrupt mismanagement under Brezhnev, followed by the chaotic final years of the Soviet Union, a poorly-implemented conversion to capitalism, the wholesale theft of national assets by a tiny circle of opportunists, and finally rule by a paranoid semi-dictatorship.

But the USSR under Khrushchev was a military and technological superpower of an almost equal standing to the USA, which beat the US in space exploration not once but several times (first satellite, first man in space, first spacecraft to orbit the Moon, and more), even though it's true that their domestic economy never matched it.

only because they spent all their oil money on tech, and let the peasants starve

sev112

Heartfeltdawn said:

"The magical money tree" - good to see Amber sticking to the script. Twice mentioned in the first five minutes. 

You only spotted 2 - we spotted 4!

Reverend

holnrew said:

The audience is living Jeremy

Did you mean loving or are they growing beards and watching Arsenal?

octatonic

Weakest link-based humour.

octatonic

Ade FTW!

hungrymark

Jeremy was awful, looked like he couldn't be bothered and got too riled ("can I finish?") which is a shame as he's come across pretty zen recently. Awful debate, May quite possibly made the right decision removing herself from the rabble. Just a shouting match. What a shit election. 

Axe_meister

Jeremy has obviously had some media training recently, just a bit smooth compared to a year ago.

Jalapeno

hungrymark said:

Jeremy was awful, looked like he couldn't be bothered and got too riled ("can I finish?") which is a shame as he's come across pretty zen recently. Awful debate, May quite possibly made the right decision removing herself from the rabble. Just a shouting match. What a shit election. 

Owls on Springwatch were ace !

ToneControl

I did some pressure-washing in the garden instead
Did I miss anything?

Fretwired

octatonic said:

Theresa May being absent for tonight's debate is a massive strategic error.

Changed my mind .. that was a ghastly piece of TV that did nothing for UK politics. Horrible ..

Fretwired

holnrew said:

Amber Rudd is just coming across like a nasty lady

The poor woman was outnumbered ... I don't like her but be fair it was a crap one-sided debate and these things should be banned. X-Factor politics won't help anyone. What if you have someone who is a consummate politician but is shit in front of TV cameras? You end up with a smooth snake oil salesman who is good on TV over someone who could be good at the job of PM.

Corbyn joined in the shoutfest - he's gone done a bit in my estimation. I thought he was above that.

Fretwired

Nitefly said:

Moe_Zambeek said:

its a bit of a rabble at the moment.

No surprise there, then.  This is yet another import from American politics that we really didn't need.

I can only give you one wis ....

What we need is forensic interviews of each leader carried out by someone who doesn't shout at them or talk over them - goodbye Paxman and Wark.

ToneControl

was it like Jeremy Kyle then?

I'd love Anthony Clare to interview them all, one at a time, but he's sadly dead