Manchester Arena explosion.

Tavernor

I realise there is a bit of irony in my post regarding views on Islam and saying I don't want people pushing their own political views. My ramble wasn't intended that way, more to provoke discussion if that makes any sense; it's one of the things the internet is good for.

Primary point is heartfelt condolences to anyone affected in any way by the attack. That comes first.

breakstuff

Great posts @Tavernor ;

Tavernor

breakstuff said:v

Great posts @Tavernor ;;

Thanks breakstuff! I'll be honest I saw a notification saying I'd been mentioned in a post and was bracing myself for a berating... I'm new enough round here not to know whether I'm rocking the boat with how I explained things. 

Emp_Fab

Not at all.  Very informative post.  Thanks. @Tavernor ;

ToneControl

Tavernor said:

There are two sides to every story, but that does not mean a reasonable argument can automatically be made to justify whichever side you happen to fall on. 

Sad truth is what has already been stated, sympathy for jihadists is much more common in the Muslim community than the left would have you believe. It's not a lack of empathy, it's a reluctance to condemn any action which goes against, even slightly, the teachings of the Qur'an. It's a tiny minority of Muslims who would ever consider an act of terror but as long as the justification of that minority is Islam itself, change of approach and attitudes needs to come primarily from within the Islamic community. I've done a quick Google for Islamic forums, and I think it's deplorable how little the Manchester attack has been talked about and/or condemned.

thanks for your insight

As far as I can tell, it was a similar thing in Northern Ireland: Few Catholics or Protestants would actually go out and kill people, but quite a few would think it was justified (I recall phrases like "there have been losses on both sides"), and most would not speak out or inform on the killers. I did know a musician who set up an anti-sectarian music venue or event back in the 80s, and had to flee to England, tolerance for those who did not "take sides" was low.

My suspicion has been that the bomb in Enniskillen changed the viewpoint of many of those people who had tolerated the violence or tacitly supported it.
I have been wondering if this atrocity in Manchester could have a similar effect on those Muslims who have been prepared to accept killings. I hope so, how many innocent people need to be slain to wake people up?

Chalky

Thank you for your insight @Tavernor.  Your post reminds me of Irish colleagues back in the early 80s who had friends who were "running with the boys" - which meant they were IRA, activists or fundraisers. My colleagues would condemn the bombings, sure, but could never quite bring themselves to condemn the bombers or IRA. That quiet acceptance and tacit support kept the IRA going, and encouraged new recruits.  My colleagues weren't bad people - they'd just been brought up to believe that what the IRA did had a kind of ultimate justification, a historical range of valid reasons that legitimised what they were "fighting for".

Jihadists will only be stopped completely when followers of Islam condemn the Jihadist justifications, not just the abhorrent acts.

ToneControl

Chalky said:

Thank you for your insight @Tavernor.  Your post reminds me of Irish colleagues back in the early 80s who had friends who were "running with the boys" - which meant they were IRA, activists or fundraisers. My colleagues would condemn the bombings, sure, but could never quite bring themselves to condemn the bombers or IRA. That quiet acceptance and tacit support kept the IRA going, and encouraged new recruits.

I remember friends from NI telling me that the kid always in trouble from their class at school, who didn't get a decent job, was in trouble, etc., would claim to be in the IRA, and try to get in it, to get respect and appear to be a hero.

This is how these violent acts are effectively supported when the bulk of people in a "tribe" are tolerating the violence without trying to prevent it, and 20% or 25% of people of the "tribe" are quietly or vocally supporting the violence 

My theory is that Enniskillen had a big effect on this

joneve

ToneControl said:

Tavernor said:

There are two sides to every story, but that does not mean a reasonable argument can automatically be made to justify whichever side you happen to fall on. 

Sad truth is what has already been stated, sympathy for jihadists is much more common in the Muslim community than the left would have you believe. It's not a lack of empathy, it's a reluctance to condemn any action which goes against, even slightly, the teachings of the Qur'an. It's a tiny minority of Muslims who would ever consider an act of terror but as long as the justification of that minority is Islam itself, change of approach and attitudes needs to come primarily from within the Islamic community. I've done a quick Google for Islamic forums, and I think it's deplorable how little the Manchester attack has been talked about and/or condemned.

thanks for your insight

As far as I can tell, it was a similar thing in Northern Ireland: Few Catholics or Protestants would actually go out and kill people, but quite a few would think it was justified (I recall phrases like "there have been losses on both sides"), and most would not speak out or inform on the killers. I did know a musician who set up an anti-sectarian music venue or event back in the 80s, and had to flee to England, tolerance for those who did not "take sides" was low.

My suspicion has been that the bomb in Enniskillen changed the viewpoint of many of those people who had tolerated the violence or tacitly supported it.
I have been wondering if this atrocity in Manchester could have a similar effect on those Muslims who have been prepared to accept killings. I hope so, how many innocent people need to be slain to wake people up?

Really good insight and a great post....Without wanting to get into a political spat (this isn't the place for it), using the "there were losses on both sides" argument, it makes you wonder whether there would be as much sympathy for jihadists if the West weren't constantly bombing countries with high Muslim populations? 

underdog

I can see things changing after this even (not saying the changes will be good or bad) but they came for our children this time. I would think government will have to be seen to actively do something about this, about the way they deal with people on their watch list, and about those places and people in the UK that breed the hate, and those who turn a blind eye to it.

New anti terror laws in line with how extreme the threat is? I really don't know, but if the government don't step in then the groups of people with shaved heads and Nazi tattoos will get their way in the end, and thus so will Isis.

Snap

I think we as a society are too scared to do anything about Islamic extremism and tie ourselves in knots lest we be called racist. Tavernor's post echoes a lot of my experiences coming from Lancashire, and growing up in Blackburn.

IMO, all religious schools should be abolished and there should be no permission granted to build ANY new religious buildings. Build social housing instead, just do something useful with the money and the space, instead of enabling more indoctrination, whatever the flavour.

Cirrus

Drew_TNBD said:

Cirrus said:

Snap said:

I:m not sure tbh. I think a large part of addressing this is from within the muslim community. They have a better view of this than anyone else, and could be a step ahead in spotting radiaclisation, extremist mosques etc. Plenty of statments coming from various quarters, but a strong condemnation from world leaders in Islam would be a good thing to see.

They typically do, but it seems like their message doesn't get very far. Just a few days ago on my facebook feed something came up from a few years ago - I'd shared a statement from the Muslim Council of Britain strongly condemning the murder of Lee Rigby and calling for all UK Muslims to stand shoulder to shoulder with the rest of the population.

Why does the general Muslim population not do so then? Sure, we get small enclaves which get paraded around as "Look! See! They do care!" and the conversation ends there. The largest British representative council for Islam asks their followers to condemn and stand against these sorts of attacks. But a large majority of UK Muslims don't lean into the rest of the British community in the face of these attacks. They just bury their head in the sand.

And it isn't their fault. Again, we shouldn't take it out on individual Muslims. But they come from and are brought up in a culture where the one true word *IS* the one true word and any deviation and heavily punished. From homosexuality to adultery to disobeying your husband to dating outside of the Muslim community, etc.

By and large they exist in a small self-policing sub-state and many of them don't speak English. They've got no-one to turn to, aren't well educated, and are trapped in a system that abuses their loyality and piety. It's like a mini-North Korea that exists in our country.

You guys talk about moderates but we already know a huge proportion of British Muslims have insanely conservative principles and want to see our British laws changed to reflect their life philosophy. A life philosophy that is taught to them from an early age in mosques and family units across the country - and the world.

I don't have any answers. But you should understand, I am not saying this is a 'Muslim' problem. I am saying it is an 'Islam' problem, and even then taking the argument to it's logical conclusion, I'm not saying it's an 'Islam' problem so much as a 'collectivist' problem. Look at all the things I criticise - they tend to be collectivist ideologies. I was reflecting on that on my way into the office this morning. All of these ideologies seek to cleanse the human spirit of it's individuality and seek to force people to bow down - whether it's a God, a state, a set of principles or overarching philosophy.

This is not about condemning any individual or group of people (aside from the cunt who did this!) - it's about exploring the state of affairs that led to it. I think UK foreign policy is a very infinitesimal part of the picture, and it's often over-egged by people who don't want to face the ideological differences between cultures.

I guess I'd approach this from a couple of angles.

Firstly, what, to you, would be a suitable public condemnation from the UK's Muslim community? The leaders come out publicly against this stuff every time, as far as I can see. Is that not enough? Maybe it isn't.

The individual mosques make their more local statements that won't get picked up by national press, they open their doors to people so secular folk like us can go and talk to Muslims and see what they think. Is that not enough? Maybe it isn't.

I work for a company that surveys social housing around the country for housing authorities, so we have lots of surveyors working in various estates which aren't always the best. It just so happens that at the moment we have a Muslim surveyor working in Manchester. He decided it would be best yesterday if he left that contract and handed over his area to someone more English looking. He had nothing to do with the attack, he's a really nice guy. As I was talking to him to establish how much of his address list I needed to pass on to another surveyor, I said I was sorry for the whole situation and this morning I got in to find an email from him where he's felt the need to condemn the attacks, explain that it's not what his faith is about. He lost work through no fault of his own and he's felt the need to defend himself to me. So on an individual level, he's condemning the attack. Is that not enough? Maybe it isn't.

We get the stories of Muslim taxi drivers offering free rides home to those affected on Monday night, Muslim restaurants giving free food to emergency services... again, individual stories. Is that not enough?

What exactly does a sufficiently robust condemnation look like? What would satisfy you?


Secondly, the historical/cultural context. Islam was birthed in a violent way, I won't deny it. The original islamic caliphate was created through conquest. In that sense, it was no different that any other empire that's been made through most of history, and was no different than most European cultures.

But then we had the enlightenment in Europe, developed capitalism and the massive economic boost thrust Western European culture into a position of world dominance. We did not treat other cultures well for a very long time, and our artificial control of the middle east and Africa, most importantly the imposition of nation states and borders that had *no relation whatsoever* with the actual tribal/ social/ ethnic realities on the ground, often as a deliberate ploy to keep the locals weak, has directly led to the situation today where the violent aspects of old cultures, totally at odds with western capitalism, are being allowed to flourish. Why? Because such violent views represent human nature when times are terrible - when education is poor and poverty is rampant, while there's a power vacuum and lack of stable institutions to root terrorism out at source.

Islam is no less compatible with Western society than Judaism or Christianity is (Christianity in particular has evolved through the modern post enlightenment period to survive alongside the massive prosperity capitalism has given us, and in doing so has basically rendered itself neutral), and I think it's important to make a distinction between the very many progressive, modern Muslims who don't want to kill us all, and the terrible Muslims who are products of some terrible sociopolitical history who do. Islam itself is not a problem. It's the culture in certain parts of the world that is, and it just so happens that those cultures are mostly Muslim - because it happened to be Christian culture that invented capitalism, modern empire building, and subjugated the world. If it had been the other way round, it's very possible there would be a largly secular, progressive culture that evolved from an Islamic past and currently faced attacks by deranged, backward Christians from the war torn and desolate British Isles.

In my mind, to say it's a Muslim problem very, very very unfairly lumps them all together - the crazed warriors of ISIS, the retarded kid in Slough who believes jihadi propaganda on Facebook, and the Muslim taxi driver who heard an explosion and just wanted to help as many fellow humans as they could.

This is the crux of it for me. Islam doesn't cause these atrocities. If you're looking for reasons, Culture and history do.

menamestom

Tavernor said:

 I just hope it won't be used as a facade for people to push their own politics, from either side.

Excellent post @tavernor

One of the things that was really getting me down yesterday was people jumping right on their political agendas without even knowing it.  The far right saying something must be done and we can't just sit back, but without a credible idea to go with it other than probably some form of social cleansing 'get them out' type of thing.  The far left were mainly closing down any debate on whether there's even an issue suggesting he was merely a lone wolf or a one off nutter.  Some of these people are friends and family on my facebook page.   One commented something about it being a bit fishy it being so near an election when Teresa May was losing momentum, so that while people were still missing they were speculating that it could have been something to do with the government.   Another left wing relative greeted me by saying that the event is going to go against Labours immigration stance (obviously oblivious to the fact the bomber was born in the UK).

I didn't post anything yesterday, I was too shocked and depressed but felt even more let down by the people who thought it appropriate to think about how this affects or justifies their political standpoint. 

So thanks for your articulation on the subject.  Somebody needs to stand up, whatever political side they are coming from and tackle the problem head on.  There is a problem within the Muslim community, saying it is neither bigoted or racist and to suggest it is tackled by something other than punitive immigration laws is not soft or defeatist, it's merely acknowledgement more hate and idealism won't stop the hate and idealism.    

I guess I just don't understand why anybody would think a hard line political ideology would ever be the answer to a religious ideology, it's just more of the people who shout the loudest and listen the least.

Drew_TNBD

Cirrus said:

This is the crux of it for me. Islam doesn't cause these atrocities. If you're looking for reasons, Culture and history do.

(Apols, I had to cut your post down to fit my own in! Not an attempt to quote mine.)

Okay the TLDR of my response is basically this; I already FUCKING SAID IT WASN'T EXCLUSIVE TO ISLAM! I SAID IT WAS COLLECTIVISM!

The long version:

You're reading me very wrong and being incredibly naive and are putting your head in the sand when it comes to the observable facts. Islamic extremism is popping up all over Europe and has been for years now. The reasons given by the perpetrators vary, their backgrounds vary, and the collateral evidence varies. The one constant is religious motivation and collective identity. If it were Christian or Buddhist terrorism that was currently flavour of month with the idiotic disaffected populace, I'd be saying the EXACT same things I am saying now!

Yes it's to do with poverty. Yes it's do with mental health. Yes it's to do with history. But it's not as if religion and collective identity has nothing to do with it - it has everything to do with it.

What would I like to see? I'd like to see outrage on behalf of the British Islamic community. I mean real outrage. I want to see them forming freedom loving militia's to root out terrorism and extremism in their communities. I want to see them sharing Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Sam Harris memes on Twitter. I want to see a 4000 strong protest of primarily Muslims screaming and shouting in Parliament square phrases like 'not in my name' and 'democracy and freedom for all!'. I want to see the stats on extreme conservative opinion within the Islamic community go down. I want to see their literacy rates rise and I want to see them become a valued and critical part of British society. I want to see them form atheist groups down the local library. I want to see them go a bit risque and drink a shandy. I want to see them wearing skimpy little bathing suits and not be judged by their own community for it.  I want to see Mosques struggling to be filled, and having to appeal to society to fix their leaky roofs, eventually resulting in it being closed or turned into an o'Neills or Whetherspoons. I want to see their self-policing mental-North-Korea stockholm syndrome behaviour disappear.

And yes I'm talking generally. I know Muslims who are cool modern metropolitan people. They are unfortunately a very slim minority.

And I'd be saying this if it were any other collectivist group intent on destroying society. Particularly when it's a society that actively encourages individuality, self-expression, and freedom. We can argue about how many bombs our corrupt and shitty governments drop, and we can pour over the final details of our society's problems and our hypocrisy on such matters.

But it's undeniable that our overarching philosophy on life is one of liberty and individualism. And THAT is what I want to see the Islamic community of the UK embracing. Read the Quran and then tell me Islam is compatible with those ideals.





As for all the historical stuff - I agree. But part of collectivism is to say that things that happened thousands, hundreds, or tens of years ago are now the responsibility of the new generation.

Which I think is indefensible. My child and your child should not be held responsible for any Western aggression in the past.

BigBearKris

Drew_TNBD said:

Cirrus said:

This is the crux of it for me. Islam doesn't cause these atrocities. If you're looking for reasons, Culture and history do.

(Apols, I had to cut your post down to fit my own in! Not an attempt to quote mine.)

Okay the TLDR of my response is basically this; I already FUCKING SAID IT WASN'T EXCLUSIVE TO ISLAM! I SAID IT WAS COLLECTIVISM!

The long version:

You're reading me very wrong and being incredibly naive and are putting your head in the sand when it comes to the observable facts. Islamic extremism is popping up all over Europe and has been for years now. The reasons given by the perpetrators vary, their backgrounds vary, and the collateral evidence varies. The one constant is religious motivation and collective identity. If it were Christian or Buddhist terrorism that was currently flavour of month with the idiotic disaffected populace, I'd be saying the EXACT same things I am saying now!

Yes it's to do with poverty. Yes it's do with mental health. Yes it's to do with history. But it's not as if religion and collective identity has nothing to do with it - it has everything to do with it.

What would I like to see? I'd like to see outrage on behalf of the British Islamic community. I mean real outrage. I want to see them forming freedom loving militia's to root out terrorism and extremism in their communities. I want to see them sharing Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Sam Harris memes on Twitter. I want to see a 4000 strong protest of primarily Muslims screaming and shouting in Parliament square phrases like 'not in my name' and 'democracy and freedom for all!'. I want to see the stats on extreme conservative opinion within the Islamic community go down. I want to see their literacy rates rise and I want to see them become a valued and critical part of British society. I want to see them form atheist groups down the local library. I want to see them go a bit risque and drink a shandy. I want to see them wearing skimpy little bathing suits and not be judged by their own community for it.  I want to see Mosques struggling to be filled, and having to appeal to society to fix their leaky roofs, eventually resulting in it being closed or turned into an o'Neills or Whetherspoons. I want to see their self-policing mental-North-Korea stockholm syndrome behaviour disappear.

And yes I'm talking generally. I know Muslims who are cool modern metropolitan people. They are unfortunately a very slim minority.

And I'd be saying this if it were any other collectivist group intent on destroying society. Particularly when it's a society that actively encourages individuality, self-expression, and freedom. We can argue about how many bombs our corrupt and shitty governments drop, and we can pour over the final details of our society's problems and our hypocrisy on such matters.

But it's undeniable that our overarching philosophy on life is one of liberty and individualism. And THAT is what I want to see the Islamic community of the UK embracing. Read the Quran and then tell me Islam is compatible with those ideals.





As for all the historical stuff - I agree. But part of collectivism is to say that things that happened thousands, hundreds, or tens of years ago are now the responsibility of the new generation.

Which I think is indefensible. My child and your child should not be held responsible for any Western aggression in the past.

Some great points there Drew, I agree with you that much more could be done within british Muslim communities in regards to raising awareness and sending strong 'No to terrorism' message. It's just difficult to debate when you come across so aggressive and angry in your posts (vide your 1st sentence in long ver).

joeyowen

A nice touch by people to help the homeless chap who ran to help.  What a hero, he deserves at least a bed to sleep in

https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/HomelessHeroManchester?fb_comment_id=1371704209611695_1371906086258174#f1c68c063bcd3e

Snap

@Drew_TNBD

wow man. you actually come out with sensible stuff when needed!!

Wisdom in droves in your post here matey. You've captured exactly what I think on this, nailed on.

Can't see how anyone could reasonably disagree with this.

underdog

One step that could be taken is these powerful men who hide in a mosque and convince vulnerable people to blow themselves (and others up) for the sake of their "war" need to be removed from society 

If the law can be changed so owners of kodi boxes can spend 10 years in prison, then why can't these people be taken out of society as soon as there is evidence against them? The bombers are going to be little issue if there's no one pulling the strings and telling them what to do

TheBlueWolf

It's more than *just* religious extremism IMHO. Sure, change should, and hopefully will, come from the Muslim community, but the reactions of certain media haven't helped either. Then there's the MP's who've used this atrocity to further their own agendas.

I agree with our involvement in the Syria conflict etc too. We can hardly take the moral high ground when we're bombing Muslim countries. 

The answer ( I think ) is to quell some of the hysteria and try to have a sensible debate which, given the above and the antics of the far left/right, could be easier said than done.

@Tavernor that was an insightful post dude

Fretwired

There's no such thing as a British Muslim community. There are people who claim to lead a Muslim community, but they don't represent it. It's too diverse, in terms of ethnicity, generations, British-born or new immigrant communities, education and values.

Dave_Vader

I spent all day yesterday glad that my stepdaughter was in Bangkok as it seemed safer.
Then she told me a bomb went off in a hospital just down the road from her as well.

I didn't know about it for 24 hours. 

I wrote this about Manchester, and a bit about Bangkok as well...

http://davedoesntwri...is-morning.html