The cult of ignorance, anti-intellectualism and "dumbing down"

ToneControl

guitarfishbay said:

Usain Bolt is undoubtedly one of the most naturally gifted athletes of all time.

How many people that tall are also properly fast?  He's got the sprint genes and he's got a wider stride than pretty much any other contender.  In his prime the only way he was losing is by false start disqualifications 

I know very little about this, but I read he had developed a technique to enable guys over 6 feet to sprint in a different way

is that true?

Heartfeltdawn

Drew_TNBD said:

And a lot of it echoes what I experienced as a child and as a teenager. I think what you're talking about actually isn't an argument against meritocratic thinking. It's an argument against a lot of the 'snowflake' stuff. Because kids get brought up with the idea that they don't have to work hard to achieve things, and that simply being is enough. Which makes for a rather rude awakening when they come of age.

Where are they told this? Where at school are they told that they simply have to sit on their arses and not get decent grades? 

digitalscream

Heartfeltdawn said:

Drew_TNBD said:

And a lot of it echoes what I experienced as a child and as a teenager. I think what you're talking about actually isn't an argument against meritocratic thinking. It's an argument against a lot of the 'snowflake' stuff. Because kids get brought up with the idea that they don't have to work hard to achieve things, and that simply being is enough. Which makes for a rather rude awakening when they come of age.

Where are they told this? Where at school are they told that they simply have to sit on their arses and not get decent grades? 

When there are no consequences for doing badly, and everybody gets a participation medal just for joining in.

Or...when your daughter is present when her headteacher tells you that it's not their job to help her achieve her full potential. It doesn't matter if her work has been A-grade all year and she gets a D on the exam...she won't get any help with a resit from the school, because her government-predicted grade is a D and that's all they have to work towards. Then you're told that grade is based on demographics only and not her work - where she lives, whether she has state-provided school lunches etc.

When a kid's effectively told, "Your kind of person is only expected to get a D", well...that's a powerful statement, isn't it? Incidentally, those predicted grades are also always very low, because that's what the schools are measured on and it wouldn't do to have lots of schools doing badly.

At least...this is how it was 5 or 6 years ago, when my daughter did her GCSEs.

Heartfeltdawn

Right, so is this an across the board thing?

This labelling of an entire generation angle seems like the same thing that has gone on forever. Television, rock and roll, video games, the hippies reacting to Vietnam, there's been a constant cycle of denouncing the younger generation as being thick. 

digitalscream

Heartfeltdawn said:

Right, so is this an across the board thing?

This labelling of an entire generation angle seems like the same thing that has gone on forever. Television, rock and roll, video games, the hippies reacting to Vietnam, there's been a constant cycle of denouncing the younger generation as being thick. 

Wait...nobody's saying they're thick. More than anything, they seem to feel entitled. You may call it "labelling of an entire generation", but there are characteristics common to each generation which are influenced by the development of society (and it'd be pretty much impossible to justify a statement like "society hasn't changed").

It's also reflective of how parenting styles have changed, and there's plenty of blame to go around for that. My generation has, to a large degree, caused the snowflake effect with our desire to make our children feel special...the problem is that they often feel too special, and we don't know how to deal with that.

chillidoggy

I'd agree with the 'entitled' thing. It dovetails neatly with the 'it's always someone else's fault' attitude that's prevalent.

I see it in H&S, too. In spite of the fact that we all have a duty of care to keep ourselves safe, there's an awful lot of "What is everyone else doing to keep me safe" going on, rather than the kind of proactive approach.

guitarfishbay

ToneControl said:

guitarfishbay said:

Usain Bolt is undoubtedly one of the most naturally gifted athletes of all time.

How many people that tall are also properly fast?  He's got the sprint genes and he's got a wider stride than pretty much any other contender.  In his prime the only way he was losing is by false start disqualifications 

I know very little about this, but I read he had developed a technique to enable guys over 6 feet to sprint in a different way

is that true?

Yes according to this - http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/recycled/2009/08/taking_sprinting_to_new_heights.html

"When Bolt first took up track, he suffered from tall man's maladies. For one thing, he ran as if he were wearing seven-league boots. His coach, Glen Mills, sped him up by shortening his stride. "Biomechanically, his body placement was not ideal for sprinting," Mills told the Jamaica Gleaner. "His head was back, his shoulders were well behind his center of gravity, this resulted in him spending too much time in the air and over-striding." Now, Mills says, "his length of stride is compatible with his height. One of the reasons he has such a long but efficient stride is because he lifts his knees so well."

Good news for tall sprinters of the future: Bolt and Mills have developed the ideal gait for a 6-foot-5 runner. It allows Bolt to use his size as a motor rather than a brake. Still, he doesn't have a classic sprinter's carriage. In the 100, he sometimes looks rickety, wobbling back and forth on the track; a less-coordinated athlete with the same dimensions might topple over as he bounds down the straightaway. Sometimes, he still lifts himself too high in the air, especially on the turn in the 200 meters. (It's hard to see how that flaw will keep him from winning a second gold medal, though.)"

Sporky

Far as I can see it's just a different sort of "entitlement" - though I'd note that that word seems to be used because it suggests it's wrong to expect a certain sort of treatment. "Expectation" is much less emotionally loaded...

It's moved on from a reasonable expectation of being able to own your own home, or having a job/career for life, or a decent pension - all things former generations felt they were going to get.

By comparison people now expect not to suffer corporal punishment at school or home, not to have to give up such a huge chunk of home life for their employer's benefit, and for employers to have an interest in their professional and personal development.

There will, of course, be people who expect educators, employers and others to do far too much for them, just there always have. How many older men never learned to cook or clean because their mothers and/or wives did it for them, fer instance?

ThePrettyDamned

digitalscream said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

Right, so is this an across the board thing?

This labelling of an entire generation angle seems like the same thing that has gone on forever. Television, rock and roll, video games, the hippies reacting to Vietnam, there's been a constant cycle of denouncing the younger generation as being thick. 

Wait...nobody's saying they're thick. More than anything, they seem to feel entitled. You may call it "labelling of an entire generation", but there are characteristics common to each generation which are influenced by the development of society (and it'd be pretty much impossible to justify a statement like "society hasn't changed").

It's also reflective of how parenting styles have changed, and there's plenty of blame to go around for that. My generation has, to a large degree, caused the snowflake effect with our desire to make our children feel special...the problem is that they often feel too special, and we don't know how to deal with that.

My girlfriend's younger sister's friends (phew) all seem to resent needing to work - when one found out she had to pay keep when she had a job, she threw a right wobbly because she'd only be able to afford to go out once a week. 

It was quite a spectacle to watch the outburst,and the confusion on her parent's faces. I don't know how super typical it is (I'm pretty hard working and definitely not especially entitled, although I have my moments) but I've definitely seen first hand a reasonable size group of people who didn't try very hard at school, resented not getting into university with no grades then resent earning £7.50 an hour in their first job (for reference, I was on minimum wage for 3 months last year and I absolutely do not regret it - in fact it was the best job I may ever have). 

Sporky

ThePrettyDamned said:

My girlfriend's younger sister's friends (phew) all seem to resent needing to work

So did I when I started work after uni. Feck all money, living in a grotty room in a shared house in Birmingham teaching thickos to use MS Office. I don't think I could afford to go out even once a week (yeah, I know, we we were lucky to get a lick of tarmac in my day).

It wasn't until I started working in my current field - and got good at it - that I started liking work. Even early on I didn't feel I was getting particularly interesting projects (probably sensible - I wasn't great at it straight off).

TL;DR - I think that's normal.

prowla

Ah - the intellectuals reinforce themselves by looking down on others; there have always been people who aren't so inclined.

digitalscream

prowla said:

Ah - the intellectuals reinforce themselves by looking down on others; there have always been people who aren't so inclined.

Or - alternatively - parents noticing things about their kids which indicate mistakes they've made and wondering how to correct them.

JezWynd

The personal computer has a lot to answer for. When the answer to anything is a google away, there is no longer any necessity to train the brain to retain knowledge, I'm pretty certain that this is a bad thing. Or maybe not when 90% of what you're being shown is for no purpose other than to make someone, somewhere, money. And this often based around some frippery that engagement with the real world would quickly reveal as pointless.

While computing has undoubtedly resulted in many good things, the overarching effect seems to be that everyone stares into the palm of their hand all day, every day.  In olden times the doctor would determine your health by looking at you - observing your eyes, hands, skin, general demeanour. If I visit a medical professional these days, they spend most if not all of the consultation staring at a screen while muttering about 'the server'.

Social media has resulted a rise in insult, overt rudeness and entrenchment in a variety of ludicrous positions, that were the victim/perpetuator not locked into a screen would surely appear ridiculous to them.

We've had BC and AD; we now appear to be living in PC. I wonder what's next.

darthed1981

Isn't a lot of this just taking some specific examples of things some people perceive as bad ("reality TV" for example, I hate it, but it's essentially harmless) and expanding on it to explain all society's problems?

Taking it back to the basics, society has always had problems, for thousands of years.  Human beings tend to be selfish, greedy and stupid on the whole, certainly when acting in groups.  This is the root of all these problems, and they just express themselves in different ways in different generations.

The irony currently, as many of you have identified is that even though knowledge has never been easier to get, people don't necessarily value it.  Generally though, these seems to be not because of any characteristic of the younger generation, but because of what has been forced upon them by the older generation.

Kids these days are (often not always) told to pass exams at school, not taught to learn, or the value of knowledge, just to pass exams.  Even the best teachers struggle under the pressure of league tables and regular national testing. 

Then, they leave school and face an incredibly materialistic society that judges you by how much money you have got and basically nothing else, it is literally everywhere.  Look at the snobbery over guitar gear, and tell me honestly for a second that part of the reason someone might buy a £5000 guitar, instead of a £500 is because they can.  The reality is we should all be pushing the merits of budget gear, to help get new players into guitars, and if they get rich they can buy custom shop gear later.  If they never do, then that is also just great.

You also don't need to be rich to consider yourself successful.  One of the unfortunate things is a lot of kids leave school with five Ds at GCSE and enter a world where often, if you don't drive a new beamer and have a £3000 sofa, you are considered an also-ran.  If we want kids to be less "entitled" why don't we start cultivating a management culture where the contributions of people in minimum wage jobs are (rightly, we depend upon them) properly appreciated? 

One thing that amazed me after the Manchester terror attack was how wonderfully young people came together, I'm not a fan of, well, almost any of the bands who appeared at the Manchester concert, but there were a lot of incredibly brave kids there.  They may not know the date of the battle of Trafalgar, or really appreciate Mozart, but they did seem to genuinely care about and support each other.

The current generation is totally fine, the current problem in Britain seems to be more the older generation sitting on the big piles of cash Thatcher gave them, and being so desperate to keep every damn penny, even after death, that they actually took away the majority of the Tory government that loves them!

That's a cruel generalisation, as I bet a lot of the older generation would love to help the younger, but the divides in modern Britain are becoming an issue for us.  The older generation think the younger generation are "entitled", the younger generation resent the older generation (more jusdtifiably, just IMHO) for pulling up the drawbridge on jobs paying 75k for driving trains or 30k for picking car parts, and accompanying gilt-edged pension schemes.  Brexiteers and Remainers, both entrenched in their positions of either "everything will be fine" or "everything will be shit" even though no-one really knows anything yet.

In summary, people are just people, we need each other, and overall ALL generations are pretty flawed, either that or the world turned into paradise, and I failed to notice...

SimonC

I blame the National Lottery, Who wants to be a Millionaire, and X Factor (and it's ilk).
There's now a misconception that anyone can become exceptionally wealthy and successful without having to expend any real effort.

darthed1981

SimonC said:

I blame the National Lottery, Who wants to be a Millionaire, and X Factor (and it's ilk).
There's now a misconception that anyone can become exceptionally wealthy and successful without having to expend any real effort.

Isn't that a bit unfair, most people are sensible enough to realise that winning the lottery is pretty unlikely and certainly not a career plan, and the people who win the X-Factor are made to work bluddy hard ,and most never become mega-rich?

Being a celebrity is certainly not an easy career choice, though no doubt some people think it is.

Drew_TNBD

Heartfeltdawn said:

Drew_TNBD said:

And a lot of it echoes what I experienced as a child and as a teenager. I think what you're talking about actually isn't an argument against meritocratic thinking. It's an argument against a lot of the 'snowflake' stuff. Because kids get brought up with the idea that they don't have to work hard to achieve things, and that simply being is enough. Which makes for a rather rude awakening when they come of age.

Where are they told this? Where at school are they told that they simply have to sit on their arses and not get decent grades? 

Digiscream has already answered this, but also I'd add that in certain classes this definitely happened to me. They wrote me off if I didn't show aptitude or interest, or if I was a disruptive element. They'd essentially sit you at the back of the class.

ThePrettyDamned

Sporky said:

ThePrettyDamned said:

My girlfriend's younger sister's friends (phew) all seem to resent needing to work

So did I when I started work after uni. Feck all money, living in a grotty room in a shared house in Birmingham teaching thickos to use MS Office. I don't think I could afford to go out even once a week (yeah, I know, we we were lucky to get a lick of tarmac in my day).

It wasn't until I started working in my current field - and got good at it - that I started liking work. Even early on I didn't feel I was getting particularly interesting projects (probably sensible - I wasn't great at it straight off).

TL;DR - I think that's normal.

Could be. I never really resented work until I really started hating my job, at which point I got some volunteer experience and found new work (minimum wage, but led to better things). But that took time, and led me into other troubles. 

My girlfriend's sister says she feels hopeless though - she feels like she doesn't have prospects, and has seen me and her sister struggle for work despite being graduates etc, and often talks about the mad price of houses. She doesn't resent needing to work, she resents feeling like her potential has not been met - she didn't do well at school, but if you knew her you'd know she is a great candidate for plenty of roles. Perhaps this view is shared by her friends too, but it wasn't communicated very clearly.

Lewy

I think when looking at notions of entitlement and lack of personal responsibility amongst millennials, you shouldn't underestimate the influence of the generally piss poor example being set by the boomers and older Gen X ers.

Those are the generations where you could be a news agent and buy a house that you'd have to run a hedge fund to buy today, and are then outraged at the idea that some of the equity in that house - wealth they've acquired through none of their own effort, just 'being' while the housing market goes crazy - might have to go towards funding their care. That seems pretty fucking snowflakey to me. Talk about everyone's got an excuse - the emerging generation is looking at a political class that exhibits very little personal accountability for its fuck ups. Why should they buck up their ideas when they're going to be dealing with the consequences of the previous generations' hubris and selfishness?

Frankly I'm amazed that millennials are as philanthropic and enterprising as they are.

Drew_TNBD

Lewy said:

I think when looking at notions of entitlement and lack of personal responsibility amongst millennials, you shouldn't underestimate the influence of the generally piss poor example being set by the boomers and older Gen X ers.

Those are the generations where you could be a news agent and buy a house that you'd have to run a hedge fund to buy today, and are then outraged at the idea that some of the equity in that house - wealth they've acquired through none of their own effort, just 'being' while the housing market goes crazy - might have to go towards funding their care. That seems pretty fucking snowflakey to me. Talk about everyone's got an excuse - the emerging generation is looking at a political class that exhibits very little personal accountability for its fuck ups. Why should they buck up their ideas when they're going to be dealing with the consequences of the previous generations' hubris and selfishness?

Frankly I'm amazed that millennials are as philanthropic and enterprising as they are.

You can be a newsagent now and own a good house. Many people do it. I'm doing it right now!! Okay, not the newsagent bit.. but you get the point - hard graft can still get you a house, if that's what you want.

I've spent the last 8minutes trying to parse SOMETHING from the rest of what you've written, and I can't. You might think what you've written is eloquent and meaningful, but I'm really struggling to understand what you mean.