The cult of ignorance, anti-intellectualism and "dumbing down"

digitalscream

Lewy said:

Evilmags said:

When 90% of published papers never get referenced in subsequent work you know their is a quality problem. 

Citation needed.

That was a joke. For what it's worth, I don't think it's a quality issue, it's a demand issue.

12% of medicine articles are not cited, compared to about 82% for the humanities. It’s 27% for natural sciences and 32% for social sciences. 

https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0809/0809.5250.pdf

The uncited articles aren't necessary shit, they're likely just not of any particular interest or value to anyone other than the author, who had to write them to get their PhD in *insert humanities subject here*

Irony: we've created a vast number of experts in subjects that are of absolutely no use to the rest of the planet. In fact, the likelihood is that such knowledge isn't even of use to those experts, either.

Lewy

digitalscream said:

Lewy said:

Evilmags said:

When 90% of published papers never get referenced in subsequent work you know their is a quality problem. 

Citation needed.

That was a joke. For what it's worth, I don't think it's a quality issue, it's a demand issue.

12% of medicine articles are not cited, compared to about 82% for the humanities. It’s 27% for natural sciences and 32% for social sciences. 

https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0809/0809.5250.pdf

The uncited articles aren't necessary shit, they're likely just not of any particular interest or value to anyone other than the author, who had to write them to get their PhD in *insert humanities subject here*

Irony: we've created a vast number of experts in subjects that are of absolutely no use to the rest of the planet. In fact, the likelihood is that such knowledge isn't even of use to those experts, either.

I saw James Watson talk once, and he was bemoaning the fact that there were so many...i think the phrase he used was "commercial PhDs". People researching subjects to get a PhD rather than being driven by a vision for why that research mattered, primarily to get jobs that wouldn't draw on any of that work.

Chalky

This thread makes the fundamental error of thinking intellectualism is naturally superior to non-intellectualism.  It is entirely possible for intellectuals to be failures in terms of family life, relationships, and work achievements. Equally, I've met very successful folks in all walks of life who are utterly non-intellectual, relying on their emotions and instincts - including some very rich business folks too.

In fact, when it comes to everyday real life issues of health, family, happiness, etc, the intellectuals on the whole display no advantages at all.

This is not anti-intellectual - its just that intellectualism has its time and place to be an advantage. Horses for courses...

Drew_TNBD

Chalky said:

This thread makes the fundamental error of thinking intellectualism is naturally superior to non-intellectualism.  It is entirely possible for intellectuals to be failures in terms of family life, relationships, and work achievements. Equally, I've met very successful folks in all walks of life who are utterly non-intellectual, relying on their emotions and instincts - including some very rich business folks too.

In fact, when it comes to everyday real life issues of health, family, happiness, etc, the intellectuals on the whole display no advantages at all.

This is not anti-intellectual - its just that intellectualism has its time and place to be an advantage. Horses for courses...

I actually agree with this. But you're framing it as non-intellectual, whereas I think you should be framing it as instinctual primarily. Because it's entirely possible to be non-intellectual and non-instinctual, and also intellectual and instinctual.

chillidoggy

Evilmags said:

Maybee if they stopped complaining about Micheal Gove (who put the education budget up every year and who's reforms took England d's educational outcomes above Scotland's for the first time in decades) they wouldn't have had a few years of cuts under his successors. (Fact checked against the UK education budget, which is a massive 85 billion pounds). Personally I think we should stop pretending that 50% of the population benefit from a degree, move the lower half of the university table back to being vocational technical colleges  (saving a fortune in funding very mediocre academic output in the process). More engineers and less gender studies graduates might actually help the economy a bit. Their are not many jobs as Guardian writers after all. When 90% of published papers never get referenced in subsequent work you know their is a quality problem. 

Wis'd.

digitalscream

Chalky said:

This thread makes the fundamental error of thinking intellectualism is naturally superior to non-intellectualism.  It is entirely possible for intellectuals to be failures in terms of family life, relationships, and work achievements. Equally, I've met very successful folks in all walks of life who are utterly non-intellectual, relying on their emotions and instincts - including some very rich business folks too.

In fact, when it comes to everyday real life issues of health, family, happiness, etc, the intellectuals on the whole display no advantages at all.

This is not anti-intellectual - its just that intellectualism has its time and place to be an advantage. Horses for courses...

Except...the entirety of humanity's progress has been down to intellectualism (relative to its state at the time). It may not be superior on an individual basis, but it most definitely is superior when considered against the continuation of civilisation, and the human race as a whole.

That's been more true for the last century than it ever has before, and we've made astonishing progress. As a result, science and knowledge were explicitly trusted and respected by everyone.

Now, however, we're heading backwards. Citation: the whole anti-vaccination movement, just about every conspiracy theory ever, the Trump campaign, the Leave campaign etc etc etc.

Etc.

Drew_TNBD

You want something to blame for the rise of anti-intellectualism, the Onion, Newsthump, and all those other bullshit satirical news websites ... they're responsible for a large part of it. The modern day snide "we're the correct ones!" attitude in the face of facts and reason hails from them.

Roland

Drew_TNBD said: 

Can someone please explain what gripes about housing and resources actually has to do with the topic of the thread - which is anti-intellectualism?

This forum, like any other, provides an opportunity for people to air their ideas, and feel good about themselves. We seek out places where a significant number of people will support and bolster our views to the point where we can feel secure that what we say must be true because so many people agree.  So given an opportunity many of us, and I'm as guilty as anyone else, will use a thread to air some of our favourite topics, even if they are no directly relevant to the thread.

@Clarky talks sense: 

Clarky said:

I think it's fear..
fear of failure.. 
we all like to think we are good, smart people.. people of value etc..
failure is embarrassing… and many people have a rather high opinion of themselves..

Anti-intellectualism is mental laziness. It's fear of the unknown, and not being willing to investigate what we don't know. It's fear of being wrong. It breeds the "you don't agree with me and therefore you are a useless wanker" type of response which we see on some other forums. It's not a new phenomenon. Until the Scientific Revolution, which began a couple of centuries ago, it pervaded everyone's thinking. It still does in many religions, where to paraphrase "that's not my interpretation of my chosen scripture, and therefore it's wrong ..", and some go on to believe "... and my version of god says that I can kill you for not agreeing with me".

Chalky

Drew_TNBD said:

Chalky said:

This thread makes the fundamental error of thinking intellectualism is naturally superior to non-intellectualism.  It is entirely possible for intellectuals to be failures in terms of family life, relationships, and work achievements. Equally, I've met very successful folks in all walks of life who are utterly non-intellectual, relying on their emotions and instincts - including some very rich business folks too.

In fact, when it comes to everyday real life issues of health, family, happiness, etc, the intellectuals on the whole display no advantages at all.

This is not anti-intellectual - its just that intellectualism has its time and place to be an advantage. Horses for courses...

I actually agree with this. But you're framing it as non-intellectual, whereas I think you should be framing it as instinctual primarily. Because it's entirely possible to be non-intellectual and non-instinctual, and also intellectual and instinctual.

Thanks for the correction. Instinctual is a much better term.

Sporky

Roland said:

This forum, like any other, provides an opportunity for people to air their ideas, and feel good about themselves. We seek out places where a significant number of people will support and bolster our views to the point where we can feel secure that what we say must be true because so many people agree. 

I'm here for the badly formed and largely spurious arguments. Mostly my own.

digitalscream

Roland said:

Anti-intellectualism is mental laziness. It's fear of the unknown, and not being willing to investigate what we don't know. It's fear of being wrong. It breeds the "you don't agree with me and therefore you are a useless wanker" type of response which we see on some other forums. It's not a new phenomenon. Until the Scientific Revolution, which began a couple of centuries ago, it pervaded everyone's thinking. It still does in many religions, where to paraphrase "that's not my interpretation of my chosen scripture, and therefore it's wrong ..", and some go on to believe "... and my version of god says that I can kill you for not agreeing with me".

Actually, I wonder if it's more simply and accurately defined as "The Cult of the Opinion". It's easier to have an Opinion than it is to learn or think about things (see anti-vaxxers etc), and once you've decided that your Opinion is correct, it doesn't need any justification or investigation. Even better, it can lead to other Opinions through any logic you choose!

Drew_TNBD

Roland said:

Drew_TNBD said: 

Can someone please explain what gripes about housing and resources actually has to do with the topic of the thread - which is anti-intellectualism?

This forum, like any other, provides an opportunity for people to air their ideas, and feel good about themselves. We seek out places where a significant number of people will support and bolster our views to the point where we can feel secure that what we say must be true because so many people agree.  So given an opportunity many of us, and I'm as guilty as anyone else, will use a thread to air some of our favourite topics, even if they are no directly relevant to the thread.

Which is a pretty good example of ignorance and anti-intellectualism. But more importantly, useless politiking.

Bork

digitalscream said:

Actually, I wonder if it's more simply and accurately defined as "The Cult of the Opinion". It's easier to have an Opinion than it is to learn or think about things (see anti-vaxxers etc), and once you've decided that your Opinion is correct, it doesn't need any justification or investigation. Even better, it can lead to other Opinions through any logic you choose!

I think it's a mix:

Firstly the cult of belief - I-can-believe-whatever-I-like-and-you-can't-stop-me - heavily influenced by the religious right in the US.

But I think there's also a generational bias - a pensioners' over endowed sense of qualification to be right by virtue of the years spent on the planet even if those years have been spent in self-imposed comfort zone punctuated only by holidays to Greece, Spain or south of France.  They're as wise and informed on current events as the Guardian or Telegraph permits and paranoid as a result. 

Drew_TNBD

This is the retarded shit we are having to deal with:

chillidoggy

Sporky said:

Roland said:

This forum, like any other, provides an opportunity for people to air their ideas, and feel good about themselves. We seek out places where a significant number of people will support and bolster our views to the point where we can feel secure that what we say must be true because so many people agree. 

I'm here for the badly formed and largely spurious arguments. Mostly my own.

Thank God for that, I thought I was the only one.

Lewy

Drew_TNBD said:

This is the retarded shit we are having to deal with:

Those kids are detestable but it's that Principal that's the real problem at that college.....someone tells him "fuck you, George" and they are just now investigating whether anyone violated the conduct rules??? Their feet shouldn't have touched the ground. 

Clarky

Roland said:

Drew_TNBD said: 

Can someone please explain what gripes about housing and resources actually has to do with the topic of the thread - which is anti-intellectualism?

This forum, like any other, provides an opportunity for people to air their ideas, and feel good about themselves. We seek out places where a significant number of people will support and bolster our views to the point where we can feel secure that what we say must be true because so many people agree.  So given an opportunity many of us, and I'm as guilty as anyone else, will use a thread to air some of our favourite topics, even if they are no directly relevant to the thread.

@Clarky talks sense: 

Clarky said:

I think it's fear..
fear of failure.. 
we all like to think we are good, smart people.. people of value etc..
failure is embarrassing… and many people have a rather high opinion of themselves..

Anti-intellectualism is mental laziness. It's fear of the unknown, and not being willing to investigate what we don't know. It's fear of being wrong. It breeds the "you don't agree with me and therefore you are a useless wanker" type of response which we see on some other forums. It's not a new phenomenon. Until the Scientific Revolution, which began a couple of centuries ago, it pervaded everyone's thinking. It still does in many religions, where to paraphrase "that's not my interpretation of my chosen scripture, and therefore it's wrong ..", and some go on to believe "... and my version of god says that I can kill you for not agreeing with me".

I remember coming out of an A-level exam when I was at school..
chatting to my class mates "jeez question 5 was tough.. what did you think?? etc etc"

at the same time as our exam was a CSE exam
kids coming our of their saying "I didn't know none of that"
"yeah.. and I didn't even know the date"
"well I didn't even know my name"

yeah so listening to them was kinda funny at the time..
but in another way.. kinda sad..
being a gobby div and bullying those that give a crap is much easier

guitarfishbay

Those kids were so boring at school

Drew_TNBD

Gobby div Lmao

Clarky

Drew_TNBD said:

Gobby div Lmao

I think we did this classification stuff in biology 

Hominidae Homo Sapien Gobby Div