How many here understand music theory?

Roland

PolarityMan said:

Ok so here's my beef with theory. I get the idea that it's just language *but* it isn't a zero cost thing to learn it takes a bunch of effort and so if I was to invest in it I'd want to see a significant return. And that's the rub, I don't think theory describes modern music adequately it's more or less just a measure of dissonance versus consonance.
For music that has been created after the invent of recording devices it's as important to be able to explain why it sounds good when you drop everything out for 2 beats and have some kind of hook playing, or why the bass should be doing straight eights over fast palm muted riffs and stuff like that.

Theory isn't a set of rules for creating music. If it were then every man and his dog, not to mention software, would be writing magnificent music. Theory is a set of tools for understanding and documenting music. It can easily document the examples you've described.

PolarityMan said:

Oh I also dont think that transposition is a great argument either, only a certain type of song can be transposed and those are ones where the instrumental parts are fairly trivial. Once your working with riffs you basically need a retun to transpose any way at which point you dont need any theory to do that either.

Any song can be transposed, and into any key. I agree that some guitar riffs can run out of fretboard in EADGBE tuning if you transpose too far. That's where the real skill comes in: rearranging the song to maintain or create the right feel.

PolarityMan

Drew_TNBD said:

octatonic said:

it isn't hard and the paranoia about 'too much learning will affect may artistry' is just nonsense.

Oh yeah absolutely. In my experience it's basically the people who don't have talent who say that kind of thing. I mean... fear of knowledge? What a preposterous notion!

I don't buy that fake-as-fuck bohemian "I'm an artist man... I don't need to learn the rules..."

Total bs.

At least in the guitar community I think it's more a backlash against 2 things, the first being stuff that's composed by people who understand the theory but don't have the artistic ability which results in predictable "safe" music that doesn't really have any originality. 

The second being the types of artist who go in depth discussing this stuff who are largely from the shred oriented side of things and a lot of people want to distance themselves from that kind of music as much as possible seeing it as pretentious etc.

I don't think many people deep down really believe knowing theory will make you worse, certainly I don't it's more about that I don't see it as providing what I want out of a theory of music, and therefore not making sense to me, to work on it. I would get more pay off for example studying drum play through of specific drummers or working on my mixing / engineering skills.

In terms of a classification / codification I wonder if it is also needlessly complex as a direct result of being based around a piano keyboard.

Interesting point around different keys having different characters, I wonder how much of that is due to temperament of the instruments.

viz

PolarityMan said:

Interesting point around different keys having different characters, I wonder how much of that is due to temperament of the instruments.

It used to be - check Christian Schubart's "characteristics", and with the guitar for example, which has tuning idiosyncracies, there could be elements of this; but with equal temperament instruments such as piano, that's no longer a possible reason.


Edit - although maybe certain wavelengths affect us more. Maybe d minor is "the saddest key"! (Spinal Tap)

ArchtopDave

Bucket said:

Emp_Fab said:

That's what puts me off learning.  I know it sounds dumb but I'm a bit bothered that if I understand what I'm doing, I'll be thinking theory all the time instead of just being in the moment.  On the other hand, I'm sure I could be better technically if I knew the theory.

You will be technically better, and understanding what you're doing will only help you to make more informed decisions about what to play - it's not meant to make you over-think everything. I don't ever find it to get in the way - I never find myself thinking "Ooh, I wish I didn't know as much" while playing, but I have often found myself thinking "Oh, I wish I understood this better".

It really does help, and anyone who thinks it won't help them is kidding themselves.

Put very neatly above by @Bucket.

I find Music Theory interesting and value it, as it allows me to understand fresh concepts and ideas pretty quickly. For instance, my regular Guitar Teacher introduced me to 'Modal Borrowing" recently. From a theoretical point of view, i could grasp the concept easily. Putting it into practice in my playing is another matter, but it gives me another interesting avenue to explore.

guitarfishbay

PolarityMan said:

In terms of a classification / codification I wonder if it is also needlessly complex as a direct result of being based around a piano keyboard.

Interesting point around different keys having different characters, I wonder how much of that is due to temperament of the instruments.

Pianos are the easiest way to understand theory.  They're linear and each note only appears one time, unlike things like guitars where you can play the same note in several different places.

All notes have a relevant frequency - I think part of the reason for a different feel is that they're playing at different frequencies, and certain frequencies lend themselves to certain things... quite important when you're considering the reproduction on speakers (which is relevant to arrangement for modern music, at least something to be aware of).

Drew_TNBD

It's down to the harmonic relationships. A minor is the relative minor of C Major. But if you play in A minor and keep whacking away at that C over and over and over, eventually it's going to sound like a C Major. But hang around the A, and it'll take on minor qualities.

PolarityMan said:

Interesting point around different keys having different characters, I wonder how much of that is due to temperament of the instruments.

PolarityMan

I was thinking more in the context of the same music but transposed into another key taking on a different feel rather than being able to use the same or similar notes and imply different keys.

viz

As per my post above. I think this is for a piano tuned to quarter comma meantone in C. 


C Major
Completely Pure. Its character is: innocence, simplicity, naïvety, children's talk.

C Minor
Declaration of love and at the same time the lament of unhappy love. All languishing, longing, sighing of the love-sick soul lies in this key.

D♭ Major
A leering key, degenerating into grief and rapture. It cannot laugh, but it can smile; it cannot howl, but it can at least grimace its crying.--Consequently only unusual characters and feelings can be brought out in this key.

C# Minor
Penitential lamentation, intimate conversation with God, the friend and help-meet of life; sighs of disappointed friendship and love lie in its radius.

D Major
The key of triumph, of Hallejuahs, of war-cries, of victory-rejoicing. Thus, the inviting symphonies, the marches, holiday songs and heaven-rejoicing choruses are set in this key.

D Minor
Melancholy womanliness, the spleen and humours brood.

E♭ Major
The key of love, of devotion, of intimate conversation with God.

D# Minor
Feelings of the anxiety of the soul's deepest distress, of brooding despair, of blackest depresssion, of the most gloomy condition of the soul. Every fear, every hesitation of the shuddering heart, breathes out of horrible D# minor. If ghosts could speak, their speech would approximate this key.

E Major
Noisy shouts of joy, laughing pleasure and not yet complete, full delight lies in E Major.

E minor
Naïve, womanly innocent declaration of love, lament without grumbling; sighs accompanied by few tears; this key speaks of the imminent hope of resolving in the pure happiness of C major. 
F Major
Complaisance & Calm.

F Minor
Deep depression, funereal lament, groans of misery and longing for the grave.

F# Major
Triumph over difficulty, free sigh of relief utered when hurdles are surmounted; echo of a soul which has fiercely struggled and finally conquered lies in all uses of this key.

F# Minor
A gloomy key: it tugs at passion as a dog biting a dress. Resentment and discontent are its language.

G Major
Everything rustic, idyllic and lyrical, every calm and satisfied passion, every tender gratitude for true friendship and faithful love,--in a word every gentle and peaceful emotion of the heart is correctly expressed by this key.

G Minor
Discontent, uneasiness, worry about a failed scheme; bad-tempered gnashing of teeth; in a word: resentment and dislike.

A♭ Major
Key of the grave. Death, grave, putrefaction, judgment, eternity lie in its radius.

A♭ Minor
Grumbler, heart squeezed until it suffocates; wailing lament, difficult struggle; in a word, the color of this key is everything struggling with difficulty.

A Major
This key includes declarations of innocent love, satisfaction with one's state of affairs; hope of seeing one's beloved again when parting; youthful cheerfulness and trust in God.

A minor
Pious womanliness and tenderness of character.

B♭ Major
Cheerful love, clear conscience, hope aspiration for a better world.

B♭ minor
A quaint creature, often dressed in the garment of night. It is somewhat surly and very seldom takes on a pleasant countenance. Mocking God and the world; discontented with itself and with everything; preparation for suicide sounds in this key.

B Major
Strongly coloured, announcing wild passions, composed from the most glaring coulors. Anger, rage, jealousy, fury, despair and every burden of the heart lies in its sphere.

B Minor
This is as it were the key of patience, of calm awaiting ones's fate and of submission to divine dispensation.

PolarityMan

viz said:

As per my post above. I think this is for a piano tuned to quarter comma meantone in C. 


C Major
Completely Pure. Its character is: innocence, simplicity, naïvety, children's talk.

C Minor
Declaration of love and at the same time the lament of unhappy love. All languishing, longing, sighing of the love-sick soul lies in this key.

D♭ Major
A leering key, degenerating into grief and rapture. It cannot laugh, but it can smile; it cannot howl, but it can at least grimace its crying.--Consequently only unusual characters and feelings can be brought out in this key.

C# Minor
Penitential lamentation, intimate conversation with God, the friend and help-meet of life; sighs of disappointed friendship and love lie in its radius.

D Major
The key of triumph, of Hallejuahs, of war-cries, of victory-rejoicing. Thus, the inviting symphonies, the marches, holiday songs and heaven-rejoicing choruses are set in this key.

D Minor
Melancholy womanliness, the spleen and humours brood.

E♭ Major
The key of love, of devotion, of intimate conversation with God.

D# Minor
Feelings of the anxiety of the soul's deepest distress, of brooding despair, of blackest depresssion, of the most gloomy condition of the soul. Every fear, every hesitation of the shuddering heart, breathes out of horrible D# minor. If ghosts could speak, their speech would approximate this key.

E Major
Noisy shouts of joy, laughing pleasure and not yet complete, full delight lies in E Major.

E minor
Naïve, womanly innocent declaration of love, lament without grumbling; sighs accompanied by few tears; this key speaks of the imminent hope of resolving in the pure happiness of C major. 
F Major
Complaisance & Calm.

F Minor
Deep depression, funereal lament, groans of misery and longing for the grave.

F# Major
Triumph over difficulty, free sigh of relief utered when hurdles are surmounted; echo of a soul which has fiercely struggled and finally conquered lies in all uses of this key.

F# Minor
A gloomy key: it tugs at passion as a dog biting a dress. Resentment and discontent are its language.

G Major
Everything rustic, idyllic and lyrical, every calm and satisfied passion, every tender gratitude for true friendship and faithful love,--in a word every gentle and peaceful emotion of the heart is correctly expressed by this key.

G Minor
Discontent, uneasiness, worry about a failed scheme; bad-tempered gnashing of teeth; in a word: resentment and dislike.

A♭ Major
Key of the grave. Death, grave, putrefaction, judgment, eternity lie in its radius.

A♭ Minor
Grumbler, heart squeezed until it suffocates; wailing lament, difficult struggle; in a word, the color of this key is everything struggling with difficulty.

A Major
This key includes declarations of innocent love, satisfaction with one's state of affairs; hope of seeing one's beloved again when parting; youthful cheerfulness and trust in God.

A minor
Pious womanliness and tenderness of character.

B♭ Major
Cheerful love, clear conscience, hope aspiration for a better world.

B♭ minor
A quaint creature, often dressed in the garment of night. It is somewhat surly and very seldom takes on a pleasant countenance. Mocking God and the world; discontented with itself and with everything; preparation for suicide sounds in this key.

B Major
Strongly coloured, announcing wild passions, composed from the most glaring coulors. Anger, rage, jealousy, fury, despair and every burden of the heart lies in its sphere.

B Minor
This is as it were the key of patience, of calm awaiting ones's fate and of submission to divine dispensation.

Oh weird, I coudlnt see that until I quoted it, anyway if you look at the top of that page you got that from it says that the characteristics were lost with the move to equal temperament.

viz

PolarityMan said:

viz said:

As per my post above. I think this is for a piano tuned to quarter comma meantone in C. 


C Major
Completely Pure. Its character is: innocence, simplicity, naïvety, children's talk.

C Minor
Declaration of love and at the same time the lament of unhappy love. All languishing, longing, sighing of the love-sick soul lies in this key.

D♭ Major
A leering key, degenerating into grief and rapture. It cannot laugh, but it can smile; it cannot howl, but it can at least grimace its crying.--Consequently only unusual characters and feelings can be brought out in this key.

C# Minor
Penitential lamentation, intimate conversation with God, the friend and help-meet of life; sighs of disappointed friendship and love lie in its radius.

D Major
The key of triumph, of Hallejuahs, of war-cries, of victory-rejoicing. Thus, the inviting symphonies, the marches, holiday songs and heaven-rejoicing choruses are set in this key.

D Minor
Melancholy womanliness, the spleen and humours brood.

E♭ Major
The key of love, of devotion, of intimate conversation with God.

D# Minor
Feelings of the anxiety of the soul's deepest distress, of brooding despair, of blackest depresssion, of the most gloomy condition of the soul. Every fear, every hesitation of the shuddering heart, breathes out of horrible D# minor. If ghosts could speak, their speech would approximate this key.

E Major
Noisy shouts of joy, laughing pleasure and not yet complete, full delight lies in E Major.

E minor
Naïve, womanly innocent declaration of love, lament without grumbling; sighs accompanied by few tears; this key speaks of the imminent hope of resolving in the pure happiness of C major. 
F Major
Complaisance & Calm.

F Minor
Deep depression, funereal lament, groans of misery and longing for the grave.

F# Major
Triumph over difficulty, free sigh of relief utered when hurdles are surmounted; echo of a soul which has fiercely struggled and finally conquered lies in all uses of this key.

F# Minor
A gloomy key: it tugs at passion as a dog biting a dress. Resentment and discontent are its language.

G Major
Everything rustic, idyllic and lyrical, every calm and satisfied passion, every tender gratitude for true friendship and faithful love,--in a word every gentle and peaceful emotion of the heart is correctly expressed by this key.

G Minor
Discontent, uneasiness, worry about a failed scheme; bad-tempered gnashing of teeth; in a word: resentment and dislike.

A♭ Major
Key of the grave. Death, grave, putrefaction, judgment, eternity lie in its radius.

A♭ Minor
Grumbler, heart squeezed until it suffocates; wailing lament, difficult struggle; in a word, the color of this key is everything struggling with difficulty.

A Major
This key includes declarations of innocent love, satisfaction with one's state of affairs; hope of seeing one's beloved again when parting; youthful cheerfulness and trust in God.

A minor
Pious womanliness and tenderness of character.

B♭ Major
Cheerful love, clear conscience, hope aspiration for a better world.

B♭ minor
A quaint creature, often dressed in the garment of night. It is somewhat surly and very seldom takes on a pleasant countenance. Mocking God and the world; discontented with itself and with everything; preparation for suicide sounds in this key.

B Major
Strongly coloured, announcing wild passions, composed from the most glaring coulors. Anger, rage, jealousy, fury, despair and every burden of the heart lies in its sphere.

B Minor
This is as it were the key of patience, of calm awaiting ones's fate and of submission to divine dispensation.

Oh weird, I coudlnt see that until I quoted it, anyway if you look at the top of that page you got that from it says that the characteristics were lost with the move to equal temperament.

Exactly, as per my first post, after you asked the question

Fuengi

Yes.

I actually prefer leading theory to playing believe it or not. But I'm also that bloke who reads the instructions before assembling / operating anything new. 

PolarityMan

So are you saying that different keys *do* still have different characters on equal temperament instruments?

Personally I'm somewhat sceptical as my own experience playing covers shows there is a certainly a range where you can transpose a lot of songs and not really lose anything about the feel but if this is still widely considered to be the case then this would be an area I would be interested in learning more about.

viz

No, they don't; I was being tongue in cheek, quoting from Spinal Tap when I said D minor was the saddest key. I've edited my original post

I mean, some may argue that the resonance of the piano might affect certain keys, or that the positions of the black notes may affect the way you actually play, but all things being equal, Schubart's premise only works on just or well-tempered instruments. 

PolarityMan

lol interpret fail on my part

stratman3142

PolarityMan said:

...Interesting point around different keys having different characters, I wonder how much of that is due to temperament of the instruments.

I have to confess I can't hear that at all, not having perfect pitch. I can generally tell that a guitar is detuned below E, when I hear a track, but that's about as far as it goes and is probably more to do with the sound/tone.

viz

PolarityMan said:

lol interpret fail on my part

Lol. But you're right, it's a fascinating subject and if you go to youtube you can hear the likes of bach played on properly 1/4-tempered harpsichords and organs and the sound is totally breathtaking. Proper 3rds sound incredible. 

adampeter

Time sigs blow my tiny mind, outside of the bog standard 3/4 or 4/4 im lost
Slowly getting my head around how scales and chords are formed, think with a bit more study i could crack it, never seem to get the time, any recommendations for books on the subject anyone?

PolarityMan

See time sigs I'm fairly comfortable with, in fact I'm generally happier with rhythm than melody. There's a great video by Gavin Harrison about breaking up complex meter's into 3's and 2's specifically with how it relates to drum composition.

guitarfishbay

viz said:

No they don't; I was being tongue in cheek, quoting from Spinal Tap when I said D minor was the saddest key. 

I mean, some may argue that the resonance of the piano might affect certain keys, or that the positions of the black notes may affect the way you actually play, but all things being equal, Schubart's premise only works on just or well-tempered instruments. 

But if you reference the piano chart I posted eariler - the pitches do have relevant frequencies and this will matter for the reproduction of the notes, which in turn can influence the feel.

All speakers have a range...  guitar cab speakers, HiFi speakers, PA speakers.  Even acoustic instruments have a frequency range when you think about it - all things being equal a bigger guitar body is going to resonate deeper and with more lower frequencies than a smaller bodied one.

All frequencies have a pitch - so instruments will be excited in different ways by different pitches due to their resonant frequencies and frequency bandwidth/response.

I think it's possibly quite complex with a lot of factors

TimmyO

I'd like to get to where a chord flavour/change/cadence that I hear in my head I can translate to where my hands need to go.

And get to the point of connecting brain->hands for intervals too.

I've found and used enough learning material in the past that will work for this - I need to stick at it consistently so that it becomes learned rather than something I sometime practice and then forget. 

IMHO the notion that knowing this stuff stifles creativity is one of 2 things: 
1 - an excuse to not bother
2 - innocent ignorance from having heard it said so many times. 

If you've ever learned to apply *any* theory then when that penny drops you know it's not true.