John Lewis has got rid of 'girls' and 'boys' labels in children's clothes.

Myranda

Drew_TNBD said:

octatonic said:

Drew_TNBD said:

octatonic said:

Drew_TNBD said:

Nitefly said:

"Toxic masculinity"?  "Delicious male tears"?  Where do you find this rubbish, and why do you bother?

Spend any time on social media in the tech, gaming (video and tabletop), music, or comedy realms.... and you'll come across it.

The only time I ever hear about this stuff from anyone in my acquaintance is on this forum.

Yeah but you're old.

Yeah but I recently finished a degree at a university in London where I was around predominantly under 25's for 3 years.
I didn't hear any of this shit uttered once.

Myranda said:

octatonic said:

Drew_TNBD said:

octatonic said:

Drew_TNBD said:

Nitefly said:

"Toxic masculinity"?  "Delicious male tears"?  Where do you find this rubbish, and why do you bother?

Spend any time on social media in the tech, gaming (video and tabletop), music, or comedy realms.... and you'll come across it.

The only time I ever hear about this stuff from anyone in my acquaintance is on this forum.

Yeah but you're old.

Yeah but I recently finished a degree at a university in London where I was around predominantly under 25's for 3 years.
I didn't hear any of this shit uttered once.

I'm currently at uni with under predominantly 25's and only an over 30 mentioned toxic masculinity in two years... and even then only once.

Bahar Mustafa must've been a figment of our imaginations then! All that stuff currently going on at colleges like Evergreen in the US... must be a far-right conspiracy!

Or Bahar Mustafa must be one person... and the US must be a couple of thousand miles away and culturally different to the UK...

octatonic

Drew_TNBD said:

Myranda said:

octatonic said:

Drew_TNBD said:

octatonic said:

Drew_TNBD said:

Nitefly said:

"Toxic masculinity"?  "Delicious male tears"?  Where do you find this rubbish, and why do you bother?

Spend any time on social media in the tech, gaming (video and tabletop), music, or comedy realms.... and you'll come across it.

The only time I ever hear about this stuff from anyone in my acquaintance is on this forum.

Yeah but you're old.

Yeah but I recently finished a degree at a university in London where I was around predominantly under 25's for 3 years.
I didn't hear any of this shit uttered once.

I'm currently at uni with under predominantly 25's and only an over 30 mentioned toxic masculinity in two years... and even then only once.

Bahar Mustafa must've been a figment of our imaginations then! All that stuff currently going on at colleges like Evergreen in the US... must be a far-right conspiracy!

I didn't say that at all- I'm just saying that it is more isolated than certain right wing websites would like to suggest.

It is just the usual Horseshoe politics thing- lunatic fringe people trying to represent the rest of 'their team', when the truth is most people are pretty centrist.

crunchman

Or @octatonic and @Myranda were doing useful courses - not the ones studying <insert name of useless modern degree here> who voted Bahar Mustafa in.

The truth is probably somewhere in between.  They do exist but it's probably a noisy minority of student union activist types.

Evilmags

I just imagine the scene if I'd tried to impose Gender neutral clothes on my daughter. How many of the morons who come up with this shite have actually stepped foot in the real world.  Gender dysmorphia affects 0.1% of the general population. What it actually is is still undefined and the issue has become a political totem. Suicide amongst transgendered people is common. It is sadly no less common in post transition transgendered people than in preparation transition ones. 

A biological determination of gender based on science is by far the most rational and widely accepted measure both in the UK and abroad. Until such a time that medicine can provide more satisfactory solutions to the issue, caution is the best way forward. Promoting complex surgery and crude hormone treatment as a "cure" may well be viewed as a barbarity in 50 years time. 

octatonic

crunchman said:

Or @octatonic and @Myranda were doing useful courses - not the ones studying <insert name of useless modern degree here> who voted Bahar Mustafa in.

The truth is probably somewhere in between.  They do exist but it's probably a noisy minority of student union activist types.

I'm also not extrapolating beyond my own experience.
It might be a bigger deal than I think it is- all I am saying in 3 years at university it didn't come up.
And I did modules where it would come up- I did a module called 'feminism in hiphop'.
The was a discussion around the objectification of women in hip hop and a fairly robust discussion but I didn't see any radical left ideas as have been presented in this thread.
We talked a bit about female hip hop artists such as Missy Elliott, Salt N Pepa etc.
No one was 'no platformed', there was no safe space- it just didn't happen- and this was a left leaning university in Tower Hamlets (London Met).

My position on it is as you state in bold- I'm not saying it didn't/doesn't happen.

Sporky

Evilmags said:

I just imagine the scene if I'd tried to impose Gender neutral clothes on my daughter. 

Wouldn't she have liked a dress with dinosaurs on it?

Drew_TNBD

octatonic said:

crunchman said:

Or @octatonic and @Myranda were doing useful courses - not the ones studying <insert name of useless modern degree here> who voted Bahar Mustafa in.

The truth is probably somewhere in between.  They do exist but it's probably a noisy minority of student union activist types.

I'm also not extrapolating beyond my own experience.
It might be a bigger deal than I think it is- all I am saying in 3 years at university it didn't come up.
And I did modules where it would come up- I did a module called 'feminism in hiphop'.
The was a discussion around the objectification of women in hip hop and a fairly robust discussion but I didn't see any radical left ideas as have been presented in this thread.
We talked a bit about female hip hop artists such as Missy Elliott, Salt N Pepa etc.
No one was 'no platformed', there was no safe space- it just didn't happen- and this was a left leaning university in Tower Hamlets (London Met).

My position on it is as you state in bold- I'm not saying it didn't/doesn't happen.

Well all I can tell you is I noticed it a fair bit at university on my BA Sonic Arts course, particularly from one lecturer who would sometimes try to bring objectification of women into discussions that had nothing to do with any of that (IE: "Don't you think those speakers mounted in that plinthe look remarkably like breasts?"), and this was 2004-2007.

And statistically this sort of student gender/feminist/sjw activism is on the rise on campuses across the UK and the USA.

And no, the USA is not really culturally that different from the UK.

WezV

Evilmags said:

I just imagine the scene if I'd tried to impose Gender neutral clothes on my daughter

What about a gender neutral label, the actual topic of the thread.

A pretty flowery dress that just says "John Lewis" on the label rather than "John Lewis: Girls"

octatonic

Drew_TNBD said:

octatonic said:

crunchman said:

Or @octatonic and @Myranda were doing useful courses - not the ones studying <insert name of useless modern degree here> who voted Bahar Mustafa in.

The truth is probably somewhere in between.  They do exist but it's probably a noisy minority of student union activist types.

I'm also not extrapolating beyond my own experience.
It might be a bigger deal than I think it is- all I am saying in 3 years at university it didn't come up.
And I did modules where it would come up- I did a module called 'feminism in hiphop'.
The was a discussion around the objectification of women in hip hop and a fairly robust discussion but I didn't see any radical left ideas as have been presented in this thread.
We talked a bit about female hip hop artists such as Missy Elliott, Salt N Pepa etc.
No one was 'no platformed', there was no safe space- it just didn't happen- and this was a left leaning university in Tower Hamlets (London Met).

My position on it is as you state in bold- I'm not saying it didn't/doesn't happen.

Well all I can tell you is I noticed it a fair bit at university on my BA Sonic Arts course, particularly from one lecturer who would sometimes try to bring objectification of women into discussions that had nothing to do with any of that (IE: "Don't you think those speakers mounted in that plinthe look remarkably like breasts?"), and this was 2004-2007.

Those sorts of ideas have been around a lot longer than that- since Greer, really.

octatonic

Postus Doppio.

Emp_Fab

Drew_TNBD said:

Here you go... the good side of masculinity:

What has masculinity got to do with that video?  You think a woman couldn't do all of those things?  Jesus... your perspective on gender is positively Victorian! 

Drew_TNBD

Emp_Fab said:

Drew_TNBD said:

Here you go... the good side of masculinity:

What has masculinity got to do with that video?  You think a woman couldn't do all of those things?  Jesus... your perspective on gender is positively Victorian! 

Did I say that? You spanner.

Drew_TNBD

octatonic said:

Drew_TNBD said:

octatonic said:

crunchman said:

Or @octatonic and @Myranda were doing useful courses - not the ones studying <insert name of useless modern degree here> who voted Bahar Mustafa in.

The truth is probably somewhere in between.  They do exist but it's probably a noisy minority of student union activist types.

I'm also not extrapolating beyond my own experience.
It might be a bigger deal than I think it is- all I am saying in 3 years at university it didn't come up.
And I did modules where it would come up- I did a module called 'feminism in hiphop'.
The was a discussion around the objectification of women in hip hop and a fairly robust discussion but I didn't see any radical left ideas as have been presented in this thread.
We talked a bit about female hip hop artists such as Missy Elliott, Salt N Pepa etc.
No one was 'no platformed', there was no safe space- it just didn't happen- and this was a left leaning university in Tower Hamlets (London Met).

My position on it is as you state in bold- I'm not saying it didn't/doesn't happen.

Well all I can tell you is I noticed it a fair bit at university on my BA Sonic Arts course, particularly from one lecturer who would sometimes try to bring objectification of women into discussions that had nothing to do with any of that (IE: "Don't you think those speakers mounted in that plinthe look remarkably like breasts?"), and this was 2004-2007.

Those sorts of ideas have been around a lot longer than that- since Greer, really.

Greer got in deep shit recently for refusing to acknowledge trans women as real women.

digitalscream

Emp_Fab said:

Drew_TNBD said:

Here you go... the good side of masculinity:

What has masculinity got to do with that video?  You think a woman couldn't do all of those things?  Jesus... your perspective on gender is positively Victorian! 

There are loads of videos of men doing things like that online, but nowhere near as many of women doing that. This could be for many reasons - men are more likely to take risks, men are faster and stronger, women have less of a hero complex...probably loads more.

In any case, in the first one in that video it's unlikely that an average woman would've had the strength or weight to be able to yank that guy out of the way quickly enough to pull him away from the train; the actual likely result of a woman over two stone lighter (that's the average) than him trying to do so would have been both of them being killed.

Then there's the one where the guy pushes the van out of the way of the train and escapes himself; the average woman (and I'm just talking averages here) probably wouldn't have been able to do that, either.

Like I keep saying...men and women are different, biologically-speaking, and two of those differences are men having more muscle mass and being more likely to take risks. Insisting the contrary will never change those facts. Incidentally, those two things are also part of why men don't live as long as women.

Drew_TNBD

digitalscream said:

Emp_Fab said:

Drew_TNBD said:

Here you go... the good side of masculinity:

What has masculinity got to do with that video?  You think a woman couldn't do all of those things?  Jesus... your perspective on gender is positively Victorian! 

There are loads of videos of men doing things like that online, but nowhere near as many of women doing that. This could be for many reasons - men are more likely to take risks, men are faster and stronger, women have less of a hero complex...probably loads more.

In any case, in that video it's unlikely that an average woman would've had the strength or weight to be able to yank that guy out of the way quickly enough to pull him away from the train; the actual likely result of a woman over two stone lighter (that's the average) than him trying to do so would have been both of them being killed.

Fuck you and your balanced viewpoint!!

octatonic

Drew_TNBD said:

octatonic said:

Drew_TNBD said:

octatonic said:

crunchman said:

Or @octatonic and @Myranda were doing useful courses - not the ones studying <insert name of useless modern degree here> who voted Bahar Mustafa in.

The truth is probably somewhere in between.  They do exist but it's probably a noisy minority of student union activist types.

I'm also not extrapolating beyond my own experience.
It might be a bigger deal than I think it is- all I am saying in 3 years at university it didn't come up.
And I did modules where it would come up- I did a module called 'feminism in hiphop'.
The was a discussion around the objectification of women in hip hop and a fairly robust discussion but I didn't see any radical left ideas as have been presented in this thread.
We talked a bit about female hip hop artists such as Missy Elliott, Salt N Pepa etc.
No one was 'no platformed', there was no safe space- it just didn't happen- and this was a left leaning university in Tower Hamlets (London Met).

My position on it is as you state in bold- I'm not saying it didn't/doesn't happen.

Well all I can tell you is I noticed it a fair bit at university on my BA Sonic Arts course, particularly from one lecturer who would sometimes try to bring objectification of women into discussions that had nothing to do with any of that (IE: "Don't you think those speakers mounted in that plinthe look remarkably like breasts?"), and this was 2004-2007.

Those sorts of ideas have been around a lot longer than that- since Greer, really.

Greer got in deep shit recently for refusing to acknowledge trans women as real women.

Yes, that was fairly recent IIRC.

chillidoggy

Which John Lewis PC moron thought that up, FFS. It sickens me when I read about people messing with kids stuff like this, and they're introducing something that simply doesn't need to be introduced. At all. Ever.

holnrew

chillidoggy said:

Which John Lewis PC moron thought that up, FFS. It sickens me when I read about people messing with kids stuff like this, and they're introducing something that simply doesn't need to be introduced. At all. Ever.

So if your son had wanted to wear dresses when he was a kid, you wouldn't let him?

chillidoggy

holnrew said:

chillidoggy said:

Which John Lewis PC moron thought that up, FFS. It sickens me when I read about people messing with kids stuff like this, and they're introducing something that simply doesn't need to be introduced. At all. Ever.

So if your son had wanted to wear dresses when he was a kid, you wouldn't let him?

Absolutely not, and neither would my wife.

Drew_TNBD

crunchman said:

Or @octatonic and @Myranda were doing useful courses - not the ones studying <insert name of useless modern degree here> who voted Bahar Mustafa in.

The truth is probably somewhere in between.  They do exist but it's probably a noisy minority of student union activist types.

Mate... the BBC puts out videos on topics like 'digital blackface' - if it is a noisy minority, then it's a noisy minority who hold positions of power in the media.