The advantages of a nitro finish.

Whitecat

crunchman said:

Whitecat said:

crunchman said:

I'm not sure what the PRS V12 finish is made from.  This is what PRS claim about it on their website:

In 2010, PRS Guitars introduced its new V12 finish. This finish was developed over 12 years, and it is intended as a midpoint between nitro and acrylic with a classic feel all its own. V12 is extremely thin to allow the guitar to resonate, but it is still incredibly durable with no risk of reacting to leather or guitar stands in a negative way.

I just Googled and found a thread on TGP where some people are saying it's very hard, and can chip and flake off.

Early V12 guitars also show some delamination problems... every now & again one pops up on TGP or the PRS Facebook group(s) that's coming off. To be fair to PRS, they will sort it under warranty every time, but if you bought the guitar secondhand they won't touch it without you having to pay for a refin.

I really like it, actually, in terms of the perceived thinness of it anyway, and I haven't had any issues myself (although I did have to send back an S2 guitar for a similar delam problem, but those aren't V12, they are essentially the original poly formulation PRS was using way back when).

Only BilT seems to be able to achieve an equally thin polyurethane finish that I've seen so far. Fender is certainly nowhere near it...

Does anyone know if that was because of specific issues with early ones, or if I buy one now will I get problems 5 years down the line?

I have a couple that are pushing 5 years old now with no issues.

Forgot when I posted that - I did have a 2011 that developed a bit of an issue on the neck, but that was 2 years ago now. It was *super* minor but it was there - ended up selling it anyway.

It seems like if there is going to be a problem most will have already shown it... 

rivercider

NelsonP said:

Price often has a big influence but its not the only thing that matters. Its about the sum of your expectations.

It's quite possible that the satin finish gave you a different set of expectations (e.g. raw, more natural, vintage etc) which you prefer. Or maybe it just had better pickups in it ;-)

I suppose possibly it outperformed my expectations thereby surprising me into paying less for it despite actually not being very keen (initially) on the looks/feel compared to the one I really wanted (which was diff colour, 'full fat' finish etc).  The pickups in each one were the same (excluding manufacturing tolerance differences) as the guitar was exactly the same model.  So are we thinking that it tricked me into buying it because I EXPECTED it to be worse and it wasn't?!  Strange one.  Because it was very clearly better, sonically - like night and day, or to use the old cliche, like taking a blanket off the amp when playing the satin one versus the other. 
I really wanted the one in Antique White, or whatever the hell it was called, but after playing the satin I just couldn't do it.  The difference was too pronounced.

Philly_Q

rivercider said:

I have to say that I slightly doubted the argument stating that a thinner finish sounds better, until I bought a PRS Vela this year in a satin finish.  Went to the shop expecting to come away with the normal finish version, but A/B'd it with the Satin one they had and could easily hear the difference; the satin came home with me instead. This was despite having no real interest in the supposedly 'inferior' (i.e. cheaper) satin finish when I set out to buy it in the first place. 
I have a Les Paul Studio that's only a 2016 so still has that lovely smell to it, and I'd have to agree that one also feels way more organic and desirable somehow than, say, my strat in its modern poly finish, despite the strat costing lots more.   

I haven't tried any of the satin finished S2 models, but I have owned a couple of satin nitro "core" models - a Standard 22 and a Standard Singlecut Satin.  I liked the feel of the thin satin finishes, but I was surprised to find both guitars were actually relatively dull/dead sounding (I'm talking acoustically, not amplified).  They were less "lively" than gloss-finished PRS guitars I've owned. 

Of course, the fact they were all mahogany, without maple tops, may have contributed (although as well all now know, wood makes no difference...).  Or maybe I just had a couple of duds.

Telejester

A neck finished in nitro sticks to my hand as if it were finished in molasses

Gassage

Telejester said:

A neck finished in nitro sticks to my hand as if it were finished in molasses

I so wanted to find this- WC Fields- It's a Gift.

JezWynd

Telejester said:

A neck finished in nitro sticks to my hand as if it were finished in molasses

Rub a little guitar polish on it and buff. Makes it smooth as. You'll need to reapply every now and then.

Telejester

JezWynd said:

Telejester said:

A neck finished in nitro sticks to my hand as if it were finished in molasses

Rub a little guitar polish on it and buff. Makes it smooth as. You'll need to reapply every now and then
About every 10 mins if I remember correctly, nitro works for some but a nightmare for me, I was scared to fart near the R9 and R8 I owned before realising fender is where it's at.

Philly_Q

Gassage said:

Telejester said:

A neck finished in nitro sticks to my hand as if it were finished in molasses

I so wanted to find this- WC Fields- It's a Gift.

Gosh, I love that film!

crunchman

@Three-ColourSunburst ; please ignore this post about the effect of wood.

@Philly_Q PRS Standards definitely have a different sound to the maple topped versions of the same guitar.

I think I actually prefer the sound of a Standard to a Custom.  With the depth of the top carve, I think the maple is too thick on the maple topped PRS line.  It may be the 25" scale as well, but they don't sound as good to me as a good Gibson.  Given how different the Standard sounds though I think it's predominantly the wood rather than the scale length.

I really like the look of the new(ish) McCarty 594.  Apparently it's a bit deeper with more mahogany, and a lower maple to mahogany ratio.  I had a play on one a few weeks back.  To my mind the best sounding PRS of that style that I've played - by a distance.  I know it's got different pickups to the ones I've played previously, and that's probably a factor as well.  Whatever the reason, it's a great guitar.

Getting back on topic, the reason I was asking about the V12 finish is that I am thinking that a 594 might an option at some point in time.

That Satin Vela is a brilliant guitar.  I bought one a few months back.  My first PRS for several years.

Whitecat

Telejester said:

A neck finished in nitro sticks to my hand as if it were finished in molasses

For me it depends on the guitar... my Knaggs is smooth-as, no matter how long I play it for, just flawless. I have an MIA Telecaster on the other hand that I would sell if it didn't sound so good, the neck gets bad after long sessions.

crunchman

Whitecat said:

Telejester said:

A neck finished in nitro sticks to my hand as if it were finished in molasses

For me it depends on the guitar... my Knaggs is smooth-as, no matter how long I play it for, just flawless. I have an MIA Telecaster on the other hand that I would sell if it didn't sound so good, the neck gets bad after long sessions.

How long have you had the Tele?  All the nitro finished necks I've had have got a lot better the more I've played them.  I've have one or two that were very sticky for 6 months or so, but I've never had one that still noticeably sticky after more than 2 years.

Three-ColourSunburst

Gassage said:

@three-coloursunburst  ;;;

One thing I would say, with no joke attached, is some things in guitars are not quantifiable. The romance, the aroma, the feel, the heritage, the history and above all, the Mojo.

I'd never get excited about a new Dumble, but show me a knackered 1957 HP Tweed Twin and I'll faint with emotion.

Show me a PRS Dragon and I'll chuckle. Show me an all original 1952 Tele and I'll sell my mother for it.

A Helix leaves me cold; a vintage CE1 will result in hours of exploration.

Honestly, some things in guitarland are better processed by the right brain as no amount of left brain rationalisation will make any sense at all and a lot of it is down to emotion, mojo, history and stuff like that.

A great post when sent me scurrying to the web to find out more. Thanks!

Seems you are entirely right and it would probably be fair to say the whole world of guitars and guitar playing is infused with magical thinking of one sort or another. I have read previously how many players assign magical properties to guitars that were once owned by celebrity players, but the belief in magic or 'mojo' is much broader than this. And there I was thinking that this sort of thing was more or less confined to religious fundamentalists, new-age healers and believers in astrology. Seems human being really haven't changed all that much since the days the worshiped tree spirits. Hey, they probably even thought a different type of spirit inhabited each different species of tree!

Edit. Of course, rationally speaking there is no such thing as magic, but this doesn't take into account the workings of the human mind. For example, isn't it supposed to be true that in many primitive tribes if someone thinks they have been 'cursed' by a witch-doctor, they will often just lay down and die within a couple of days?

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/09/science/09guitar.html?mcubz=0

https://www.business.uq.edu.au/sites/default/files/events/files/karen-fernandez-paper.pdf

JezWynd

crunchman said:

Whitecat said:

Telejester said:

A neck finished in nitro sticks to my hand as if it were finished in molasses

For me it depends on the guitar... my Knaggs is smooth-as, no matter how long I play it for, just flawless. I have an MIA Telecaster on the other hand that I would sell if it didn't sound so good, the neck gets bad after long sessions.

How long have you had the Tele?  All the nitro finished necks I've had have got a lot better the more I've played them.  I've have one or two that were very sticky for 6 months or so, but I've never had one that still noticeably sticky after more than 2 years.

That my experience too. Polish is a temporary fix while the finish cures or whatever it is that it does.

Whitecat

crunchman said:

Whitecat said:

Telejester said:

A neck finished in nitro sticks to my hand as if it were finished in molasses

For me it depends on the guitar... my Knaggs is smooth-as, no matter how long I play it for, just flawless. I have an MIA Telecaster on the other hand that I would sell if it didn't sound so good, the neck gets bad after long sessions.

How long have you had the Tele?  All the nitro finished necks I've had have got a lot better the more I've played them.  I've have one or two that were very sticky for 6 months or so, but I've never had one that still noticeably sticky after more than 2 years.

A few years now. Played it less and less though because of that stickiness... probably need to break it out again and fight through it until it's cured properly.

NelsonP

rivercider said:

NelsonP said:

Price often has a big influence but its not the only thing that matters. Its about the sum of your expectations.

It's quite possible that the satin finish gave you a different set of expectations (e.g. raw, more natural, vintage etc) which you prefer. Or maybe it just had better pickups in it ;-)

I suppose possibly it outperformed my expectations thereby surprising me into paying less for it despite actually not being very keen (initially) on the looks/feel compared to the one I really wanted (which was diff colour, 'full fat' finish etc).  The pickups in each one were the same (excluding manufacturing tolerance differences) as the guitar was exactly the same model.  So are we thinking that it tricked me into buying it because I EXPECTED it to be worse and it wasn't?!  Strange one.  Because it was very clearly better, sonically - like night and day, or to use the old cliche, like taking a blanket off the amp when playing the satin one versus the other. 
I really wanted the one in Antique White, or whatever the hell it was called, but after playing the satin I just couldn't do it.  The difference was too pronounced.

Sounds like it might have just been a better guitar?

Your point about exceeding expectations is a thing though. It's called positive disconfirmation.

Now I want a satin PRS Vela.

Sassafras

Three-ColourSunburst said:

Gassage said:

@three-coloursunburst  ;

One thing I would say, with no joke attached, is some things in guitars are not quantifiable. The romance, the aroma, the feel, the heritage, the history and above all, the Mojo.

I'd never get excited about a new Dumble, but show me a knackered 1957 HP Tweed Twin and I'll faint with emotion.

Show me a PRS Dragon and I'll chuckle. Show me an all original 1952 Tele and I'll sell my mother for it.

A Helix leaves me cold; a vintage CE1 will result in hours of exploration.

Honestly, some things in guitarland are better processed by the right brain as no amount of left brain rationalisation will make any sense at all and a lot of it is down to emotion, mojo, history and stuff like that.

A great post when sent me scurrying to the web to find out more. Thanks!

Seems you are entirely right and it would probably be fair to say the whole world of guitars and guitar playing is infused with magical thinking of one sort or another. I have read previously how many players assign magical properties to guitars that were once owned by celebrity players, but the belief in magic or 'mojo' is much broader than this. And there I was thinking that this sort of thing was more or less confined to religious fundamentalists, new-age healers and believers in astrology. Seems human being really haven't changed all that much since the days the worshiped tree spirits. Hey, they probably even thought a different type of spirit inhabited each different species of tree!

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/09/science/09guitar.html?mcubz=0

https://www.business.uq.edu.au/sites/default/files/events/files/karen-fernandez-paper.pdf

You've either got soul or you haven't.
Why buy an original oil or water colour painting when you can buy a poster of it?
I'm guessing you're more of a poster man.

MartinB

guitars4you said:

Gassage said:

guitars4you said:

Three-ColourSunburst said:

Gassage said:

One serious point- it's far more tactile on a neck than poly.

Is this just with mahogany necks? The maple necks on my Ibanez Prestige RG and Talman seem to have hardly any finish at all on the back of the neck, just being smooth and slightly satiny.

many modern built guitars now use a gunstock oil/wax blend and a hand rubbed finish to acquire that smooth played in vibe - This approach is now adopted by many and includes certain Ibanez models - EVH helped spread the gospel for this trend to capture the vibe of a played in old 'un - I think you find it more on maple necks but I have seen similar on mahogany as well

Mark

Any idea where one might get this? I have one guitar that's got no laquer whatsoever on the neck.

I assume you mean where can you acquire the gunstock oil and wax blend - If so I don't know - I dare say guys like Steve Robinson or Jon at Feline can help you on that - or indeed other luthiers/finishers

Birchwood Casey Tru-oil can be bought from gun suppliers online (or your locally if you have one).  I'd avoid the wax that they sell to go with it though, as it uses silicone that could cause problems with glues and finishes in future.  

Whitecat

FWIW PRS now uses this and only this on their non-stained maple necks - http://solarez.com/products/polyester-uv-cure-grain-sealer/ - it's AWESOME.

 

If you want stain though they have to go the full process with the V12 topcoat.

Gassage

Three-ColourSunburst said:

Gassage said:

@three-coloursunburst  ;

One thing I would say, with no joke attached, is some things in guitars are not quantifiable. The romance, the aroma, the feel, the heritage, the history and above all, the Mojo.

I'd never get excited about a new Dumble, but show me a knackered 1957 HP Tweed Twin and I'll faint with emotion.

Show me a PRS Dragon and I'll chuckle. Show me an all original 1952 Tele and I'll sell my mother for it.

A Helix leaves me cold; a vintage CE1 will result in hours of exploration.

Honestly, some things in guitarland are better processed by the right brain as no amount of left brain rationalisation will make any sense at all and a lot of it is down to emotion, mojo, history and stuff like that.

A great post when sent me scurrying to the web to find out more. Thanks!

Seems you are entirely right and it would probably be fair to say the whole world of guitars and guitar playing is infused with magical thinking of one sort or another. I have read previously how many players assign magical properties to guitars that were once owned by celebrity players, but the belief in magic or 'mojo' is much broader than this. And there I was thinking that this sort of thing was more or less confined to religious fundamentalists, new-age healers and believers in astrology. Seems human being really haven't changed all that much since the days the worshiped tree spirits. Hey, they probably even thought a different type of spirit inhabited each different species of tree!

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/09/science/09guitar.html?mcubz=0

https://www.business.uq.edu.au/sites/default/files/events/files/karen-fernandez-paper.pdf

If mojo was defined as a form of undefineable inspiration, then maybe that is it? Dunno.

My beloved 1961 burst (the one in my avatar) has so many scars, dings, holes and scrapes and so on that I often look at it and think wonder what stories it could tell if it could speak?

I wonder when it played Stairway or Freebird for the first time, the first time beer was spilled on it, who did the cig burn on its headstock, if it's ever played Wembley and so on. It's music, it's all about the heritage that drives us.

I feel a fraud when I play it as I am nowhere near good enough to own that instrument, but without being a snob, you can get equal inspiration from other sources too, whether it be a Squier CV (excellent guitars) or whatever.

I hope that makes sense.

Philly_Q

crunchman said:

@Three-ColourSunburst ; please ignore this post about the effect of wood.

@Philly_Q PRS Standards definitely have a different sound to the maple topped versions of the same guitar.

I think I actually prefer the sound of a Standard to a Custom.  With the depth of the top carve, I think the maple is too thick on the maple topped PRS line.  It may be the 25" scale as well, but they don't sound as good to me as a good Gibson.  Given how different the Standard sounds though I think it's predominantly the wood rather than the scale length.

I really like the look of the new(ish) McCarty 594.  Apparently it's a bit deeper with more mahogany, and a lower maple to mahogany ratio.  I had a play on one a few weeks back.  To my mind the best sounding PRS of that style that I've played - by a distance.  I know it's got different pickups to the ones I've played previously, and that's probably a factor as well.  Whatever the reason, it's a great guitar.

Getting back on topic, the reason I was asking about the V12 finish is that I am thinking that a 594 might an option at some point in time.

That Satin Vela is a brilliant guitar.  I bought one a few months back.  My first PRS for several years.

I'm not going to disagree about the effect of wood on the tone!   Totally agreed about all-mahogany versus maple/mahogany, I've owned loads of all-mahogany guitars and I actually expected to prefer the PRS Standards to the maple-topped ones, but they defied my expectations and sounded really dull.  Maybe it was the finish, maybe it was the wood, maybe they were indeed just a couple of duds.

I like the look of the 594 too, it's the slightly bigger neck which is the most appealing factor for me.  But they're just too expensive.

Going back to the V12 finish, I've got a couple of 2011 limited-run McCartys which - I think - were among the earliest models with the V12 finish (although something is nagging away at the back of my mind saying that may be wrong - was there a V11 finish?).  Anyway, I've had no problems with the finish, touch wood, although they haven't been played very much.