The advantages of a nitro finish.

MartinB

Three-ColourSunburst said:

Gassage said:

@three-coloursunburst  ;;;;

One thing I would say, with no joke attached, is some things in guitars are not quantifiable. The romance, the aroma, the feel, the heritage, the history and above all, the Mojo.

I'd never get excited about a new Dumble, but show me a knackered 1957 HP Tweed Twin and I'll faint with emotion.

Show me a PRS Dragon and I'll chuckle. Show me an all original 1952 Tele and I'll sell my mother for it.

A Helix leaves me cold; a vintage CE1 will result in hours of exploration.

Honestly, some things in guitarland are better processed by the right brain as no amount of left brain rationalisation will make any sense at all and a lot of it is down to emotion, mojo, history and stuff like that.

A great post when sent me scurrying to the web to find out more. Thanks!

Seems you are entirely right and it would probably be fair to say the whole world of guitars and guitar playing is infused with magical thinking of one sort or another. I have read previously how many players assign magical properties to guitars that were once owned by celebrity players, but the belief in magic or 'mojo' is much broader than this. And there I was thinking that this sort of thing was more or less confined to religious fundamentalists, new-age healers and believers in astrology. Seems human being really haven't changed all that much since the days the worshiped tree spirits. Hey, they probably even thought a different type of spirit inhabited each different species of tree!

Of course, rationally speaking there is no such thing as magic, but this doesn't take into account the workings of the human mind. For example, isn't it supposed to be true that in many primitive tribes if someone thinks they have been 'cursed' by a witch-doctor, they will often just lay down and die within a couple of days?

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/09/science/09guitar.html?mcubz=0

https://www.business.uq.edu.au/sites/default/files/events/files/karen-fernandez-paper.pdf

I think you may be drifting into the same territory that caused all the tension in the other thread.  If you dismiss all irrational, intuitive, emotion-driven thinking, it's hard to see what value music making could have at all.  It's possible to measure and quantify many aspects of sound, but the only thing that can tell you whether it sounds good or not is a person making a subjective judgement about it. 
Personally I have no time for astrology, new-age healing and the like, as they are applying magical thinking to something with a concrete, quantifiable, often life-or-death outcome.  But music is an area where I think there is room for a bit of it, as the worst that could happen is to play something that someone didn't like.  If emotion is the only useful measure of the outcome, why not allow some in the process? 

rivercider

NelsonP said:

rivercider said:

NelsonP said:

Price often has a big influence but its not the only thing that matters. Its about the sum of your expectations.

It's quite possible that the satin finish gave you a different set of expectations (e.g. raw, more natural, vintage etc) which you prefer. Or maybe it just had better pickups in it ;-)

I suppose possibly it outperformed my expectations thereby surprising me into paying less for it despite actually not being very keen (initially) on the looks/feel compared to the one I really wanted (which was diff colour, 'full fat' finish etc).  The pickups in each one were the same (excluding manufacturing tolerance differences) as the guitar was exactly the same model.  So are we thinking that it tricked me into buying it because I EXPECTED it to be worse and it wasn't?!  Strange one.  Because it was very clearly better, sonically - like night and day, or to use the old cliche, like taking a blanket off the amp when playing the satin one versus the other. 
I really wanted the one in Antique White, or whatever the hell it was called, but after playing the satin I just couldn't do it.  The difference was too pronounced.

Sounds like it might have just been a better guitar?

Your point about exceeding expectations is a thing though. It's called positive disconfirmation.

Now I want a satin PRS Vela.

'Positive disconfirmation'?  I googled that and it gets a little deep. However, the relationship I have with the Vela has only intensified since purchase, thus far, so hopefully I'm not just tricking myself into liking it more than it deserves ;-)

Put another way, I have an LP Studio and Fender American Pro strat (only bought this year too, I really had a midlife crisis blowout) which get little to no playtime at all since I got the PRS.  I eventually traded up to genuine US made Gibson and Fender guitars after a few years of trying Squiers, MIMs and the Korean builts, but neither one of them quite has the 'mojo' of that little Vela, despite the oft-heard view that PRS are a tad soulless.  I also owned a PRS Bernie which was, in truth, not much below the level of the Gibson LP despite being way cheaper. Shouldn't have sacrificed that one.

I know now that I got suckered into the whole thing about American-made magic, as there truly are great instruments at various price points below the American stuff.

Luck of the draw perhaps re my satin Vela vs the gloss Vela, but I have to attribute the difference to the finish, because the white one was really nice too, just sounded muffled in comparison. Had they not had a satin one there to try, I swear I'd have walked out with the gloss finish, I mean it certainly wasn't a duff example or anything....unless OTHER gloss Velas sound as good as my satin (I've only played two).....*can of worms*. 

NelsonP

Sounds like you have a fine collection of guitars! You aren't tricking yourself I'm sure. I pulled off the same trick with a MIM vs USA tele. I preferred the MIM, even though I knew I shouldn't. I bought it and now I love it.

One thing that I've heard about velas (no idea whether this is true) is that they sometimes don't produce a harmonic on the 5th fret, when using one or other of the pickups (think the neck one, but not sure). Sounds like BS to me. Have you found that?

Three-ColourSunburst

MartinB said:

Three-ColourSunburst said:

...it would probably be fair to say the whole world of guitars and guitar playing is infused with magical thinking of one sort or another. I have read previously how many players assign magical properties to guitars that were once owned by celebrity players, but the belief in magic or 'mojo' is much broader than this. And there I was thinking that this sort of thing was more or less confined to religious fundamentalists, new-age healers and believers in astrology. Seems human being really haven't changed all that much since the days the worshiped tree spirits. Hey, they probably even thought a different type of spirit inhabited each different species of tree!

Of course, rationally speaking there is no such thing as magic, but this doesn't take into account the workings of the human mind. For example, isn't it supposed to be true that in many primitive tribes if someone thinks they have been 'cursed' by a witch-doctor, they will often just lay down and die within a couple of days?

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/09/science/09guitar.html?mcubz=0

https://www.business.uq.edu.au/sites/default/files/events/files/karen-fernandez-paper.pdf

I think you may be drifting into the same territory that caused all the tension in the other thread. If you dismiss all irrational, intuitive, emotion-driven thinking, it's hard to see what value music making could have at all.  It's possible to measure and quantify many aspects of sound, but the only thing that can tell you whether it sounds good or not is a person making a subjective judgement about it.  Personally I have no time for astrology, new-age healing and the like, as they are applying magical thinking to something with a concrete, quantifiable, often life-or-death outcome.  But music is an area where I think there is room for a bit of it, as the worst that could happen is to play something that someone didn't like.  If emotion is the only useful measure of the outcome, why not allow some in the process? 

Maybe, but the main point I am making here is that, whether or not all the 'mojo', magical thinking and lore surrounding guitars is rationally true or not might ultimately not really matter. For example, if a belief in a curse is enough to cause someone just to lay down and die, who's to say that believing that a thin nitro finish increases the 'oneness' a player has with their instrument doesn't have a real effect on the way they play? As you say, much of the response to music is emotional, so it follows that emotion might well be lot more significant than reason when it comes to its creation.

Or something like that! 

Gassage

@Three-ColourSunburst ;

Cricket is one of my main loves in life. Let me tell you once you believe a bat has 'mojo' you'll use it until it falls into 2 pieces, even if you are getting the bats free (as I do)...... And if it gives you confidence, that makes you play better....it's same thing really.

NelsonP

I think a lot of what drives our preferences and liking of things goes on well below the level of consciousnesses. This means that we can't fully understand how preferences are formed within our brains now,  or possibly ever.

Which leaves a little space for mojo, magic, emotion etc. How much of that you are prepared to accept is a personal thing and everyone is different.

Three-ColourSunburst

NelsonP said:

I think a lot of what drives our preferences and liking of things goes on well below the level of consciousnesses. This means that we can't fully understand how preferences are formed within our brains now,  or possibly ever.

Which leaves a little space for mojo, magic, emotion etc. How much of that you are prepared to accept is a personal thing and everyone is different.

That probably means that I am screwed when it comes to guitar playing! I have no space in my life for magic or mojo of any kind, being obsessively analytical with everything I do. (Apparently, I am very likely high-functioning autistic - my lad has been diagnosed with the same issue.)

Gassage

Three-ColourSunburst said:

NelsonP said:

I think a lot of what drives our preferences and liking of things goes on well below the level of consciousnesses. This means that we can't fully understand how preferences are formed within our brains now,  or possibly ever.

Which leaves a little space for mojo, magic, emotion etc. How much of that you are prepared to accept is a personal thing and everyone is different.

That probably means that I am screwed when it comes to guitar playing! I have no space in my life for magic or mojo of any kind, being obsessively analytical with everything I do. (Apparently, I am very likely high-functioning autistic - my lad has been diagnosed with the same issue.)

Respectfully, you are very very left brained!

My left brain (bottom) is near dysfunctional- top half is great. My right brain is totally dominant most of the time.

menamestom

Gassage said:

@three-coloursunburst  ;

One thing I would say, with no joke attached, is some things in guitars are not quantifiable. The romance, the aroma, the feel, the heritage, the history and above all, the Mojo.

I'd never get excited about a new Dumble, but show me a knackered 1957 HP Tweed Twin and I'll faint with emotion.

Show me a PRS Dragon and I'll chuckle. Show me an all original 1952 Tele and I'll sell my mother for it.

A Helix leaves me cold; a vintage CE1 will result in hours of exploration.

Honestly, some things in guitarland are better processed by the right brain as no amount of left brain rationalisation will make any sense at all and a lot of it is down to emotion, mojo, history and stuff like that.

I agree with this and I'm certainly right brain by default by this definition.  But one thing I would say personally is when I've had the gigs flying in, as per recently when I have been in 2 cover bands and an original band the left side has well and truly taken over.

Then it's:-

Can it be set up quickly?
Is it reliable / does it stay in tune?
Can I afford to have it damaged?
Can I risk getting it stolen?
Is it light enough for a 3 hour set?

When you just need to get the job done in a live environment, mojo, romance and history become far down on the list.  Practicalities like taking your '52 tele for a piss so you don't get it robbed come into play (or even worse, getting a tweed amp into a cubicle!).

WezV

Whitecat said:

Telejester said:

A neck finished in nitro sticks to my hand as if it were finished in molasses

For me it depends on the guitar... my Knaggs is smooth-as, no matter how long I play it for, just flawless. I have an MIA Telecaster on the other hand that I would sell if it didn't sound so good, the neck gets bad after long sessions.

Method of buffing has as much affect on this as finish type.

Lacquer buffed with compound(the normal way) can feel very sticky when new.  Re-buff with micromesh and you can get 99% of the shine with none of the stick.  

Both look shiny to the naked eye, but would look quite different under a microscope.  The compound buffed finish will look much smoother than the abrasive buffed one... any microscopic imperfections get filled with compound making it so smooth you get a suction effect that feels sticky 

nitro guitars will normally feel less sticky as the finish naturally sinks/thins out.  Sometimes this is confused with it being under cured.  Sometimes it is actually under cured.

 

Neil

Gassage said:

@Three-ColourSunburst ;

Cricket is one of my main loves in life. Let me tell you once you believe a bat has 'mojo' you'll use it until it falls into 2 pieces, even if you are getting the bats free (as I do)...... And if it gives you confidence, that makes you play better....it's same thing really.

Nothing unusual in this.

Many sportsmen have all sorts of superstitions that if adhered to give them the ultra confidence they need.

Similar in the world of music with types of instruments and the mojo that goes along with it. 

Gassage

Neil said:

Gassage said:

@Three-ColourSunburst ;

Cricket is one of my main loves in life. Let me tell you once you believe a bat has 'mojo' you'll use it until it falls into 2 pieces, even if you are getting the bats free (as I do)...... And if it gives you confidence, that makes you play better....it's same thing really.

Nothing unusual in this.

Many sportsmen have all sorts of superstitions that if adhered to give them the ultra confidence they need.

Similar in the world of music with types of instruments and the mojo that goes along with it. 

Google Neil Mckenzie

Neil

Three-ColourSunburst said:

NelsonP said:

I think a lot of what drives our preferences and liking of things goes on well below the level of consciousnesses. This means that we can't fully understand how preferences are formed within our brains now,  or possibly ever.

Which leaves a little space for mojo, magic, emotion etc. How much of that you are prepared to accept is a personal thing and everyone is different.

That probably means that I am screwed when it comes to guitar playing! I have no space in my life for magic or mojo of any kind, being obsessively analytical with everything I do. (Apparently, I am very likely high-functioning autistic - my lad has been diagnosed with the same issue.)

Possibly in the wrong game?

Music and all the arts are greatly about "feel" -  like an abstract painting.

It's unquantifiable but it is definitely there.

There is no room for spreadsheets in the arts. 

crunchman

Neil said:

Three-ColourSunburst said:

NelsonP said:

I think a lot of what drives our preferences and liking of things goes on well below the level of consciousnesses. This means that we can't fully understand how preferences are formed within our brains now,  or possibly ever.

Which leaves a little space for mojo, magic, emotion etc. How much of that you are prepared to accept is a personal thing and everyone is different.

That probably means that I am screwed when it comes to guitar playing! I have no space in my life for magic or mojo of any kind, being obsessively analytical with everything I do. (Apparently, I am very likely high-functioning autistic - my lad has been diagnosed with the same issue.)

Possibly in the wrong game?

Music and all the arts are greatly about "feel" -  like an abstract painting.

It's unquantifiable but it is definitely there.

There is no room for spreadsheets in the arts. 

Not entirely true.  Having been at university with a lot of highly left brained scientists and engineers, there were a lot of very good musicians there.  That was in my time.  Not to mention one of the famous alumni of my university - was going to post a pic of Brian May but am having problems posting it

Even in my brief teaching career there was a very high proportion of Physics teachers I ran into who were musicians. There seems to be a lot of computer programmer types and engineers on this forum as well - which are generally thought of as left brained type of things.

There are a lot of patterns in music, that seem to appeal to left brain type people.

Feel is very important as well.  There are musicians who are highly competent technical players with very little feel, but I suspect that music is something that needs both sides of the brain to do at a high level.

Another thing to note is that a lot of great guitarists have been left handers.  Hendrix is the most obvious example, but it's interesting that there have been several great players who are left handed but play guitar right handed - Mark Knopfler and Gary Moore come to mind.  I don't know enough about how left handers brains are wired, but it might be interesting to study.

rivercider

NelsonP said:

Sounds like you have a fine collection of guitars! You aren't tricking yourself I'm sure. I pulled off the same trick with a MIM vs USA tele. I preferred the MIM, even though I knew I shouldn't. I bought it and now I love it.

One thing that I've heard about velas (no idea whether this is true) is that they sometimes don't produce a harmonic on the 5th fret, when using one or other of the pickups (think the neck one, but not sure). Sounds like BS to me. Have you found that?

Re that 5th fret thing, I think that's a common issue when using the neck pickup on certain guitars (e.g. strats) due to the harmonic falling directly over that particular pickup on whatever model it is.  Don't think it happens on humbucker guitars though, possibly due to placement/size of pickup....I think if you Google it you'll see it's not exclusive to the PRS, that's for sure. Can't recall trying or noticing it on my Vela, but it'll be there if you have it.
I know my strat certainly behaves this way on neck pickup selection, it's all a bit scientific for me tho....

crunchman

rivercider said:

NelsonP said:

Sounds like you have a fine collection of guitars! You aren't tricking yourself I'm sure. I pulled off the same trick with a MIM vs USA tele. I preferred the MIM, even though I knew I shouldn't. I bought it and now I love it.

One thing that I've heard about velas (no idea whether this is true) is that they sometimes don't produce a harmonic on the 5th fret, when using one or other of the pickups (think the neck one, but not sure). Sounds like BS to me. Have you found that?

Re that 5th fret thing, I think that's a common issue when using the neck pickup on certain guitars (e.g. strats) due to the harmonic falling directly over that particular pickup on whatever model it is.  Don't think it happens on humbucker guitars though, possibly due to placement/size of pickup....I think if you Google it you'll see it's not exclusive to the PRS, that's for sure. Can't recall trying or noticing it on my Vela, but it'll be there if you have it.
I know my strat certainly behaves this way on neck pickup selection, it's all a bit scientific for me tho....

I'm getting an error message when I try to link to pictures at the moment but there is a picture in this thread on Strat-talk that explains it:

http://www.strat-talk.com/threads/fifth-fret-harmonics-weak.353024/

Does kind of make sense.  If the pickup is positioned at the node where the 24th fret would be on a 24 fret guitar, then it would be at the node.  With humbuckers being wider, one of the coils wouldn't be under the node.

HAL9000

Three-ColourSunburst said:

lonestar said:

If you prefer a thick and protective surface then polyurethane is your answer. If you want a finish that is thinner than a strand of human hair, expands, contracts and wears with you then nitro is perfect. 

That's interesting. I hadn't realised just how thin a nitro finish is compared to a polyurethane one. Another question though. Why can't a polyurethane finish also be made thinner?

Thanks!

I seem to recall reading about a Fender technician spending time at their Mexico factory demonstrating to the staff there how to spray a thin coat of Polyurethane. Apparently for the Classic series instruments.

FelineGuitars

Three-ColourSunburst said:

Given such problems I guess having a nitro finish on a guitar (rather than something more durable such as polyurethane) must bring with it some big benefits. Can anyone explain what these are?

Because somebody told me on the internet (who in turn had heard it on the internet)

Don't get me wrong - I quite some nitro finishes (except all the ones having problems)

NelsonP

crunchman said:

rivercider said:

NelsonP said:

Sounds like you have a fine collection of guitars! You aren't tricking yourself I'm sure. I pulled off the same trick with a MIM vs USA tele. I preferred the MIM, even though I knew I shouldn't. I bought it and now I love it.

One thing that I've heard about velas (no idea whether this is true) is that they sometimes don't produce a harmonic on the 5th fret, when using one or other of the pickups (think the neck one, but not sure). Sounds like BS to me. Have you found that?

Re that 5th fret thing, I think that's a common issue when using the neck pickup on certain guitars (e.g. strats) due to the harmonic falling directly over that particular pickup on whatever model it is.  Don't think it happens on humbucker guitars though, possibly due to placement/size of pickup....I think if you Google it you'll see it's not exclusive to the PRS, that's for sure. Can't recall trying or noticing it on my Vela, but it'll be there if you have it.
I know my strat certainly behaves this way on neck pickup selection, it's all a bit scientific for me tho....

I'm getting an error message when I try to link to pictures at the moment but there is a picture in this thread on Strat-talk that explains it:

http://www.strat-talk.com/threads/fifth-fret-harmonics-weak.353024/

Does kind of make sense.  If the pickup is positioned at the node where the 24th fret would be on a 24 fret guitar, then it would be at the node.  With humbuckers being wider, one of the coils wouldn't be under the node.

Thanks both - makes a lot of sense.

Three-ColourSunburst

NelsonP said:

Interesting. That is for an open string, but a similar thing must happen with normally picked notes, fretted notes and for other higher harmonics.  Can anyone perceive this variation in the harmonic balance from note to note, and for each pick up position?