Lance Armstrong Documentary.

chillidoggy

Gassage said:

Watched this last night- riveting stuff and I'd no idea just how deep this had gone.

I honestly can't think of any person who has disappointed the wider western world and sporting world more.

I also see the other side- which is everyone was doping too.

But to see a guy that was once iconic admit his whole career was a fraud and then show little self awareness or contrition over it saddened me greatly.

Jimmy Savill?

stimpsonslostson

chillidoggy said:

Gassage said:

Watched this last night- riveting stuff and I'd no idea just how deep this had gone.

I honestly can't think of any person who has disappointed the wider western world and sporting world more.

I also see the other side- which is everyone was doping too.

But to see a guy that was once iconic admit his whole career was a fraud and then show little self awareness or contrition over it saddened me greatly.

Jimmy Savill?

My first thoughts were OJ Simpson (sporting- there's an incredible documentary about his fall from grace) or Bill Cosby (non sporting). 

jpfamps

prowla said:

I remember some years ago commenting in the office that all of the cyclists were on drugs and a very keen cyclist got really upset and aggressive about it.

Probably on steroids then?

Evilmags

Try cycling a long distance (like over 100 miles long). See what it does to even a fit you. How anybody did the tour in those days without drugs is beyond me. The races were quite a bit quicker, especially given recent changes in bike technology. 

prowla

jpfamps said:

prowla said:

I remember some years ago commenting in the office that all of the cyclists were on drugs and a very keen cyclist got really upset and aggressive about it.

Probably on steroids then?

He used to tell us how he'd kick cars if they got too close to him whilst he was cycling in London.

crunchman

Evilmags said:

Try cycling a long distance (like over 100 miles long). See what it does to even a fit you. How anybody did the tour in those days without drugs is beyond me. The races were quite a bit quicker, especially given recent changes in bike technology. 

Reminds me of the Jacques Anquetil quote: You can’t ride the Tour de France on mineral water.

That was the prevailing attitude.  Anquetil won the Tour 5 times in the late 50s and early 60s.  There was an endemic culture of doping that probably went back 50 years.

prowla said:

jpfamps said:

prowla said:

I remember some years ago commenting in the office that all of the cyclists were on drugs and a very keen cyclist got really upset and aggressive about it.

Probably on steroids then?

He used to tell us how he'd kick cars if they got too close to him whilst he was cycling in London.

Having cycled around 30,000 miles in London I can understand the temptation.  I've never actually damaged a car, but there plenty of times I have thought about it.

earwighoney

Gassage said:

Watched this last night- riveting stuff and I'd no idea just how deep this had gone.

I honestly can't think of any person who has disappointed the wider western world and sporting world more.

I also see the other side- which is everyone was doping too.

But to see a guy that was once iconic admit his whole career was a fraud and then show little self awareness or contrition over it saddened me greatly.

What differentiates Lance Armstrong to other athletes is he that he was caught.

There are names in other sports who have very tenuous reputations at best e.g. Rafa Nadal, Paula Radcliffe and so on.  The Russian doping scandal & WADA have a lot of questions to answer as well.  Operation Puerta's cover up created more questions than it was due to answer. 

I saw another documentary about doping and in that Carl Lewis was pretty much boasting that he wasn't caught.  It was pretty amazing to watch.  

If you want to check out another documentary about doping, albeit from a completely different angle (the use of steroids in weight lifting) I quite enjoyed a film called 'Bigger Stronger Faster' 

Wazmeister

At first I thought that this was a documentary about Lance Keltner from YouTube fame...

joneve

Seriously guys. Watch Icarus!

jpfamps

earwighoney said:

Gassage said:

Watched this last night- riveting stuff and I'd no idea just how deep this had gone.

I honestly can't think of any person who has disappointed the wider western world and sporting world more.

I also see the other side- which is everyone was doping too.

But to see a guy that was once iconic admit his whole career was a fraud and then show little self awareness or contrition over it saddened me greatly.

What differentiates Lance Armstrong to other athletes is he that he was caught.

There are names in other sports who have very tenuous reputations at best e.g. Rafa Nadal, Paula Radcliffe and so on.  The Russian doping scandal & WADA have a lot of questions to answer as well.  Operation Puerta's cover up created more questions than it was due to answer. 

I saw another documentary about doping and in that Carl Lewis was pretty much boasting that he wasn't caught.  It was pretty amazing to watch.  

If you want to check out another documentary about doping, albeit from a completely different angle (the use of steroids in weight lifting) I quite enjoyed a film called 'Bigger Stronger Faster' 

I think what differentiates Lance Armstrong is not so much that he was caught, but his behaviour towards anyone who got in his way, and subsequent lack of contrition.

earwighoney

jpfamps said:

earwighoney said:

Gassage said:

Watched this last night- riveting stuff and I'd no idea just how deep this had gone.

I honestly can't think of any person who has disappointed the wider western world and sporting world more.

I also see the other side- which is everyone was doping too.

But to see a guy that was once iconic admit his whole career was a fraud and then show little self awareness or contrition over it saddened me greatly.

What differentiates Lance Armstrong to other athletes is he that he was caught.

There are names in other sports who have very tenuous reputations at best e.g. Rafa Nadal, Paula Radcliffe and so on.  The Russian doping scandal & WADA have a lot of questions to answer as well.  Operation Puerta's cover up created more questions than it was due to answer. 

I saw another documentary about doping and in that Carl Lewis was pretty much boasting that he wasn't caught.  It was pretty amazing to watch.  

If you want to check out another documentary about doping, albeit from a completely different angle (the use of steroids in weight lifting) I quite enjoyed a film called 'Bigger Stronger Faster' 

I think what differentiates Lance Armstrong is not so much that he was caught, but his behaviour towards anyone who got in his way, and subsequent lack of contrition.

Yes, agree.  He was an absolute douche bag.  A real nasty bully to his team mates.  Other people might have doped but they weren't the majestic narcissist that Armstrong was/is.

sev112

jpfamps said:

earwighoney said:

Gassage said:

Watched this last night- riveting stuff and I'd no idea just how deep this had gone.

I honestly can't think of any person who has disappointed the wider western world and sporting world more.

I also see the other side- which is everyone was doping too.

But to see a guy that was once iconic admit his whole career was a fraud and then show little self awareness or contrition over it saddened me greatly.

What differentiates Lance Armstrong to other athletes is he that he was caught.

There are names in other sports who have very tenuous reputations at best e.g. Rafa Nadal, Paula Radcliffe and so on.  The Russian doping scandal & WADA have a lot of questions to answer as well.  Operation Puerta's cover up created more questions than it was due to answer. 

I saw another documentary about doping and in that Carl Lewis was pretty much boasting that he wasn't caught.  It was pretty amazing to watch.  

If you want to check out another documentary about doping, albeit from a completely different angle (the use of steroids in weight lifting) I quite enjoyed a film called 'Bigger Stronger Faster' 

I think what differentiates Lance Armstrong is not so much that he was caught, but his behaviour towards anyone who got in his way, and subsequent lack of contrition.

But being a dick shouldn't be the reason for losing all his titles and prosecution etc etc but at the same time not go after the other competitors,  this was a media circus, all of the sponsors must have known what was going on - it has been written about for years. I find it quite eye opening that not many of the runners up in those tours have stepped up to take the title that Armstrong has lost......  

Applying resources and time and effort going after one person because he is the biggest dick out of the lot just seems puerile to me.  Certainly go after the top people to show that it matters, but also go after the others too.

littlegreenman

crunchman said:

I don't think you can look at him in isolation.  There was a doping culture in professional cycling at the time that was everywhere and pretty much accepted as the norm.  If you look at the top ten of the 2005 Tour de France, Cadel Evans was the only one who was not caught up in drugs in some way.  10th placed Oscar Pereiro was given a retrospective TUE after failing a drug test for Salbutamol.   I'm pretty sure that all of the others were caught up in blood doping at some point.

The UCI have to take a lot of blame for this.  If they had busted Armstrong (and the others) earlier, then this wouldn't have been allowed to reach the point it did.

If you look at the shambles at the start of the 2006 Tour, where a whole bunch of riders were booted out days before, and the whole Astana team didn't compete, you see the extent of the problem.  None of the top 5 riders from the previous year were even in the race.  As far as I can remember that happened more because the Tour organisers got fed up and took unilateral action.  The UCI were sitting on their hands.

18 out of the 2005 TdF top 20! I was there in Paris to see Vinokourov win the stage and Lance win number 7, my first time at Le Tour and while it does sour the memory a little I think it's true to say that it was so endemic back then that had none of them been doping the results would probably have been very similar, if not the same.

I've said this before. Although we'll never really know the truth about Cadel I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt, he always looked destroyed at the end of the big stages when the others were just coasting in.

Would be nice to think things have changed and I'd say they've "improved", but when we still get riders booted from Grand Tours for doping, and the UCI and ASO allow teams to have Director Sportives like Bruyneel and Vinokourov it's hard not to keep an eyebrow raised.

Thankfully, the public's faith in the sport seems to have returned after a few years of major doubt after the whole Lance et al scandals. I've been to Le Tour and La Vuelta the last 2 years running and the crowds are huge again, and moreso, families are back watching and bringing their kids. I really hope nothing happens to spoil the obvious hero worship those kids have for the likes of Froomey, Quintana, Van Vleuten and Vos like happened for some of my generation.

Sassafras

Just read an interesting survey on wiki where a majority of athletes were saying they knew doping was dangerous and they'd accept drugs shortening their lives to a mere 5 years after the event if it meant they won it.
With that sort of determination it's hard to see how sport will ever be 'clean'.

BigBearKris

Sassafras said:

Just read an interesting survey on wiki where a majority of athletes were saying they knew doping was dangerous and they'd accept drugs shortening their lives to a mere 5 years after the event if it meant they won it.
With that sort of determination it's hard to see how sport will ever be 'clean'.

That is why there are voices for allowing the doping in sports, as in professional sports there always will be doping - it's just the matter of who gets caught and when. 
Those who appear clean never stand any chance against those who train and eat the same + use some kind of dope. 
Allow it, monitor it, make the rules clear - could it work?

cj73

I'd have two classifications:

Take whatever you like and we get to publish pictures of your shrunken nads, moobs and publish all the details of your early death.

Race as clean and if you get caught, sine die
  

littlegreenman

BigBearKris said:

Sassafras said:

Just read an interesting survey on wiki where a majority of athletes were saying they knew doping was dangerous and they'd accept drugs shortening their lives to a mere 5 years after the event if it meant they won it.
With that sort of determination it's hard to see how sport will ever be 'clean'.

That is why there are voices for allowing the doping in sports, as in professional sports there always will be doping - it's just the matter of who gets caught and when. 
Those who appear clean never stand any chance against those who train and eat the same + use some kind of dope. 
Allow it, monitor it, make the rules clear - could it work?

From a pure athlete A versus athlete B, in sport C, then probably yes.

You do of course then have to widen the agenda as to at what age are aspiring athletes allowed to start doping? Whatever arbitrary age limit was set some would start to push the limit. And so from that POV I'd say no. You would always have some pushy parent/ coach doping up their kids, as was the case in the former USSR and Eastern Bloc states (and no doubt others) in the '60's and '70's. And if it's officially sanctioned then children will think that it must be OK because the stars are doing it.

Not a road we should be going down IMO.

mattdavis

I think it's all just quite sad.
He seems to have some serious psychopathic traits, as do many elite sportspeople. I wonder whether those traits were amplified by the win at all costs attitude he needed to get through his  horrendous metastatic cancer. 
The completely brazen denials and the venom with which he attacked his critics is pretty eye watering. But that same bullish drive raised millions for his Foundation and will have helped thousands. 

rsvmark

+1 for Icarus. 

Gagaryn

+2 for Icarus. It's a remarkable film.