Modellers..Can they do this yet?

siraxeman

Make  modeller that has a setting for studio direct and for into an amp...that actually delievers a real amp like sound when plugged straight in front of an amp? I know the Boss GT's definitely had a global setting for direct/phones...amp stack...combo amp etc. And it doesn't really work that convincingly in reality. The ideas there with good intentions but its not there IMO. Is this asking too much of modelling ? DI sounds that simulate what you get in a control room they seem to have it pretty much nailed. But what players often crave and why many modellers don't cut it for a lot of players is they don't give that real amp in a room sound..ie proper in your face - even when you're plugged into an amp. If they could make a modeller that does this aspect as well as the direct then that'd be the ultimate and when a lot of players might sell their amps. Is it a pipe dream ?

guitarfishbay

Axe FX 2 and a beefy power amp is pretty good for a lot of tones into a cab, it's not 1:1 with valve but it's more than good enough IMO.  It might be even better with a valve power amp for this specific purpose, but I haven't tried this

Fretwired

A powered Full Range, Flat Response speaker system should do the job.

John_A

Yes, it's asking too much.  The big variable is the amp it's plugged in to, plug a Helix or Axe FX with the amps bypassed in to a JCM800 and it'll sound like a JCM800, a modeller wont make it sound like a Princeton or vice-versa.

Also, why bother?  You would then mic the amp up and go through the desk/pa /monitors and it would come back at you sounding like you were in the control room.  

If you want 2 Marshall stacks behind you, then a couple of valve power amps and 4x12's will get you very close indeed

Fiftyshadesofjay

They can all do a convincing job if you're going FOH / Monitorand running into a power amp + cab. 

Going into the front of an amp is a different story as the signal has to also pass through the preamp of the amp in question. 

guitarfishbay

Fretwired said:

A powered Full Range, Flat Response speaker system should do the job.

Not for the specific sound he wants

He wants it to be the same as standing in front of a guitar cab, and the only thing that sounds like that is being infront of a guitar cab.

You see it with a bunch of bands who use digital - some of them such as Metallica and The Offspring still have a traditional guitar cab on stage even though the FOH sound is all direct.

Fretwired

guitarfishbay said:

Fretwired said:

A powered Full Range, Flat Response speaker system should do the job.

Not for the specific sound he wants

He wants it to be the same as standing in front of a guitar cab, and the only thing that sounds like that is being infront of a guitar cab.

You see it with a bunch of bands who use digital - some of them such as Metallica and The Offspring still have a traditional guitar cab on stage even though the FOH sound is all direct.

I was thinking of something like this ... these are very good .. http://atomicamps.com/clr-reference-frfr-monitors/


If you want the feel of a real amp then use a real amp and cab.

Teetonetal

Are you meaning sounds like an amp when placed before an amp? Wouldn't you get this by turning the IR/Cab off and using the modelled pre amp only into the guitar in? Or power amp moder into the fx return?

I would have thought that it's the emulation of the speaker that gives you the "control room" sound?

siraxeman

Fiftyshadesofjay said:

They can all do a convincing job if you're going FOH / Monitorand running into a power amp + cab. 

Going into the front of an amp is a different story as the signal has to also pass through the preamp of the amp in question. 

Yeah spot on but I should've worded it better - going into an amps FX return is really what I meant as every amp has its own colouration that would spoil whatever gets put through it in terms of modelling.

I mean even going direct to a PA and through monitors...do all PA systems sound as good as each other? Do all monitors sound the same or equally as good? There will always be some coloration to the sound no matter what you put stuff through.

siraxeman

Teetonetal said:

Are you meaning sounds like an amp when placed before an amp? Wouldn't you get this by turning the IR/Cab off and using the modelled pre amp only into the guitar in? Or power amp moder into the fx return?

I would have thought that it's the emulation of the speaker that gives you the "control room" sound?

yes.....all modellers seem to still sound when plugged into the back end of an amp (haven't tried a standalone power amp as I don't have one) but into the FX return there's still something missing....modellers are simulations and through an amp that 'simulation' aspect comes out loud and clear - ie you'd never really think wow that sounds just like my Marshall...even when plugged into the back of your Marshall if you know what I mean? Tis a bit like Coke vs Diet Coke.

John_P

I was getting pretty good results from the ax8 and amplifire running one output with cab models to the PA and the other outputs without into the amp.   With a 5153 it was very close comparing the ax8 to the real preamp but I had all the extra options the real preamp didn't allow.

Roland

siraxeman said:

... into the FX return there's still something missing....modellers are simulations and through an amp that 'simulation' aspect comes out loud and clear ...

Things that I don't miss include flaky valves, mains hum, hiss, weight, inconsistent sound, and having to let it cool down before I can pack away. 

You're right about a difference in sound, but a lot of that is not about the modeller, it's the delivery mechanism. Through a PA you wouldn't know the difference between a modeller and a mic'd cabinet. The stage crew would. For many recorded sounds most people wouldn't know the difference, except the studio staff who didn't have to deal with a 100w through a 4x12.

Where there is a difference is standing in front of a guitar cabinet at a typical small stage gig. Which is why many players in that situation put a modeller through a power amp and Cab.

PS. If this turns into another of your trolling threads then I might get annoyed.

Teetonetal

siraxeman said:

Teetonetal said:

Are you meaning sounds like an amp when placed before an amp? Wouldn't you get this by turning the IR/Cab off and using the modelled pre amp only into the guitar in? Or power amp moder into the fx return?

I would have thought that it's the emulation of the speaker that gives you the "control room" sound?

yes.....all modellers seem to still sound when plugged into the back end of an amp (haven't tried a standalone power amp as I don't have one) but into the FX return there's still something missing....modellers are simulations and through an amp that 'simulation' aspect comes out loud and clear - ie you'd never really think wow that sounds just like my Marshall...even when plugged into the back of your Marshall if you know what I mean? Tis a bit like Coke vs Diet Coke.

Yup. I would agree. I'm not convinced by using an fx return - though I imagine that not all fx returns are not equal. Better results splitting the paths for 4cm with real amp plus an emulated DI into a PA if possible I reckon.

siraxeman

@Roland I don't do trolling threads. Get annoyed all you want though, who cares either way? You do know I've actually just bought a Helix, and owned lots of digital modelling gear since it first came out. I'm actually a fan....but not for live onstage sound/feel realism. At home or in a studio setting they are IMO better...most amps that sound great at gig levels don't cut it at house volumes. My AC30 for example definitely doesn't come close...in fact at those low volumes its quite uninspiring at least by itself.

Jonathanthomas83

John_P said:

but I had all the extra options the real preamp didn't allow.

I may be in the minority here but this ^ is way more important to me than the "amp in the room" feel the OP is talking about. The audience doesn't get that feel at all and I'd much rather perfect the tone for their ears by hearing an identical sound. Those extra tonal options on a modeller are so important to my sound now, Id struggle without them.

I actually think my stereo pair of DXR10s pump out enough volume to make it feel real enough for me too. Can feel it under the fingers perfectly, at least as good as what I could my old amps. Not the same, a little different, but definitely not worse. Takes a while to get used to, but now I've found the sound I like, it's great.

Roland

The "are modellers there yet?" question really depends on the style of music and type of venue. For what I do, small gigs through a PA, the tipping point was several years ago. 

Fractal's latest speaker compression algorithm is highly rated by those who've tried it. Apparently it gives a very realistic AC30 feel. I haven't tried it yet because I'm not upgrading until October's run of gigs is over. Even then I probably wouldn't be a good judge because I tend towards the cleaner side of things. However it's another example of how modellers are progressing into the sound and feel of a valve combo on a small stage. 

ThePrettyDamned

I ran pod farm from my laptop into a power amp and it sounded pretty great - definitely didn't sound much like a modeller (and that isn't exactly cutting edge modelling these days).

I think the missing links are the cab and speaker. But you know, I don't really care about nitpicking tone too much - I would swap my hand wired valve amp and most of my pedals for a helix. 

John_A

Bang a good modeller in to the fx return of an amp, and you wouldn't be able to tell you're using a modeller if you're using the preamp model of the amp you're plugging in to.  That is however missing the point

John_A

siraxeman said:

@Roland I don't do trolling threads. Get annoyed all you want though, who cares either way? You do know I've actually just bought a Helix, and owned lots of digital modelling gear since it first came out. I'm actually a fan....but not for live onstage sound/feel realism. At home or in a studio setting they are IMO better...most amps that sound great at gig levels don't cut it at house volumes. My AC30 for example definitely doesn't come close...in fact at those low volumes its quite uninspiring at least by itself.

I think it's live that modellers really shine, the audience gets a pro level guitar sound, rather than the spillover from an am on stage

Fiftyshadesofjay

siraxeman said:

Fiftyshadesofjay said:

They can all do a convincing job if you're going FOH / Monitorand running into a power amp + cab. 

Going into the front of an amp is a different story as the signal has to also pass through the preamp of the amp in question. 

Yeah spot on but I should've worded it better - going into an amps FX return is really what I meant as every amp has its own colouration that would spoil whatever gets put through it in terms of modelling.

I mean even going direct to a PA and through monitors...do all PA systems sound as good as each other? Do all monitors sound the same or equally as good? There will always be some coloration to the sound no matter what you put stuff through.

I use my Kemper through the effects return of my Mesa Roadster sometimes and it sounds immense. Of course it colours it somewhat but I'm of the mindset that if it sounds good then fine, I don't get bent out of shape regarding the accuracy of it all.

You are right about PA systems as well. I've had it a few times where our sound engineer has said the direct feed to the PA sounds rubbish on certain setups for some reason, even though it's been fine for the majority of gigs. 

Voxman

Most modellers, even older ones like the Vox Tonelabs I use, let you select global EQ settings for different amp types and PA direct.  The original TLSE only has two (amp/direct) whereas the TLLE has 5 - 3 amp types, direct & a custom global setting where you can shape and save the EQ you want (and my little TLST has 4).  I've tried going through the FX return of different amps but on most amps I actually prefer going through the front end.  I know this 'colours' the tone from the amps pre-amp but it just seems to sound and feel better with some amps.  It also depends on the amps FX loop that can be quite different for some reason even if these are the same 'type' - and of course different if you're comparing series v parallel. It also means I can use the amps on-board  volume and EQ instead of being limited by the TL's controls.  

These (TLSE/TLLE) are way older tech I know, but even though the modelling can't match the new generation stuff the TL's still sound pretty convincing and very valve-like & organic in front of an amp or through the PA which is why I'm still using them - the valve in the TLSE/TLLE really does make a difference.  Believe me, I've tried to 'upgrade' to MFX units like the Line 6 Pod HD500, Boss GT100, Zoom G5/G5n/Digitech RP500/1000 but I just can't get them to 'feel' right - the TL's just seem bigger sounding & more organic - and I can't justify spending the big bucks needed for the top Helix/AX-FX gear etc.

I have struggled with my TL's through some amp types though - Marshall JCM2000 and 900 heads, either direct or through the FX loop I just couldn't get a good sound, but that could be because the amps in the rehearsal room were old and the valves were likely long over due for changing. We've gone back to our old rehearsal room that's re-opened, and I'm back to using their Hughes & Kettner solid-state Warp 7 through a 4x12 with Celestions (not sure of type), and the TL's sound great through the front end.   

With my own amps, I usually put the TL's through the front end - Laney VC30-210, Laney Cub 12R, Marshall Valvestate 8080, and Marshall JCM2000 DSL401, but these sound really good through the FX loop of the Cub 12R too.  I would mention that being older tech, you can't use the 4CM with Tonelabs because the on-board FX loop is in the wrong place. So I always use the clean channels of the amps (or set clean on the single channel Cub) and use the TL's for everything including modelling and distortions, and I use the cab models too. But I don't get hung up about trying to exactly replicate amp types, just in getting a good tone for live playing.