Make modeller that has a setting for studio direct and for into an amp...that actually delievers a real amp like sound when plugged straight in front of an amp? I know the Boss GT's definitely had a global setting for direct/phones...amp stack...combo amp etc. And it doesn't really work that convincingly in reality. The ideas there with good intentions but its not there IMO. Is this asking too much of modelling ? DI sounds that simulate what you get in a control room they seem to have it pretty much nailed. But what players often crave and why many modellers don't cut it for a lot of players is they don't give that real amp in a room sound..ie proper in your face - even when you're plugged into an amp. If they could make a modeller that does this aspect as well as the direct then that'd be the ultimate and when a lot of players might sell their amps. Is it a pipe dream ?
Comments
Remember, it's easier to criticise than create!
Also, why bother? You would then mic the amp up and go through the desk/pa /monitors and it would come back at you sounding like you were in the control room.
If you want 2 Marshall stacks behind you, then a couple of valve power amps and 4x12's will get you very close indeed
Going into the front of an amp is a different story as the signal has to also pass through the preamp of the amp in question.
He wants it to be the same as standing in front of a guitar cab, and the only thing that sounds like that is being infront of a guitar cab.
You see it with a bunch of bands who use digital - some of them such as Metallica and The Offspring still have a traditional guitar cab on stage even though the FOH sound is all direct.
If you want the feel of a real amp then use a real amp and cab.
Remember, it's easier to criticise than create!
I would have thought that it's the emulation of the speaker that gives you the "control room" sound?
Yeah spot on but I should've worded it better - going into an amps FX return is really what I meant as every amp has its own colouration that would spoil whatever gets put through it in terms of modelling.
I mean even going direct to a PA and through monitors...do all PA systems sound as good as each other? Do all monitors sound the same or equally as good? There will always be some coloration to the sound no matter what you put stuff through.
You're right about a difference in sound, but a lot of that is not about the modeller, it's the delivery mechanism. Through a PA you wouldn't know the difference between a modeller and a mic'd cabinet. The stage crew would. For many recorded sounds most people wouldn't know the difference, except the studio staff who didn't have to deal with a 100w through a 4x12.
Where there is a difference is standing in front of a guitar cabinet at a typical small stage gig. Which is why many players in that situation put a modeller through a power amp and Cab.
PS. If this turns into another of your trolling threads then I might get annoyed.
@Roland I don't do trolling threads. Get annoyed all you want though, who cares either way? You do know I've actually just bought a Helix, and owned lots of digital modelling gear since it first came out. I'm actually a fan....but not for live onstage sound/feel realism. At home or in a studio setting they are IMO better...most amps that sound great at gig levels don't cut it at house volumes. My AC30 for example definitely doesn't come close...in fact at those low volumes its quite uninspiring at least by itself.
I actually think my stereo pair of DXR10s pump out enough volume to make it feel real enough for me too. Can feel it under the fingers perfectly, at least as good as what I could my old amps. Not the same, a little different, but definitely not worse. Takes a while to get used to, but now I've found the sound I like, it's great.
View my feedback at www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/comment/1201922
Fractal's latest speaker compression algorithm is highly rated by those who've tried it. Apparently it gives a very realistic AC30 feel. I haven't tried it yet because I'm not upgrading until October's run of gigs is over. Even then I probably wouldn't be a good judge because I tend towards the cleaner side of things. However it's another example of how modellers are progressing into the sound and feel of a valve combo on a small stage.
I think the missing links are the cab and speaker. But you know, I don't really care about nitpicking tone too much - I would swap my hand wired valve amp and most of my pedals for a helix.
You are right about PA systems as well. I've had it a few times where our sound engineer has said the direct feed to the PA sounds rubbish on certain setups for some reason, even though it's been fine for the majority of gigs.
These (TLSE/TLLE) are way older tech I know, but even though the modelling can't match the new generation stuff the TL's still sound pretty convincing and very valve-like & organic in front of an amp or through the PA which is why I'm still using them - the valve in the TLSE/TLLE really does make a difference. Believe me, I've tried to 'upgrade' to MFX units like the Line 6 Pod HD500, Boss GT100, Zoom G5/G5n/Digitech RP500/1000 but I just can't get them to 'feel' right - the TL's just seem bigger sounding & more organic - and I can't justify spending the big bucks needed for the top Helix/AX-FX gear etc.
I have struggled with my TL's through some amp types though - Marshall JCM2000 and 900 heads, either direct or through the FX loop I just couldn't get a good sound, but that could be because the amps in the rehearsal room were old and the valves were likely long over due for changing. We've gone back to our old rehearsal room that's re-opened, and I'm back to using their Hughes & Kettner solid-state Warp 7 through a 4x12 with Celestions (not sure of type), and the TL's sound great through the front end.
With my own amps, I usually put the TL's through the front end - Laney VC30-210, Laney Cub 12R, Marshall Valvestate 8080, and Marshall JCM2000 DSL401, but these sound really good through the FX loop of the Cub 12R too. I would mention that being older tech, you can't use the 4CM with Tonelabs because the on-board FX loop is in the wrong place. So I always use the clean channels of the amps (or set clean on the single channel Cub) and use the TL's for everything including modelling and distortions, and I use the cab models too. But I don't get hung up about trying to exactly replicate amp types, just in getting a good tone for live playing.