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In this Discussion
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Is it time for ...
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Comments
I've been thinking about @nomad's thoughtful post above for a while rather than just replying off-the-cuff. So hopefully these thoughts will appear a little more considered, as I don't have the excuse of not having taken the time to thing about them!
I'll start at the end, with "What is the purpose of the challenges?".
Really, it's just to get people enthused and motivated enough to do something. It's the basis of weight watchers, AA, et al (not that I'm a member of either!). If you commit to doing something as part of a group, you're more committed to actually doing it than if you just think to yourself that you'd like to do it, one day.
So, the challenges have been intended to encourage people to jump in and build a whatever, as part of a group all doing the same thing. The challenges have been very supportive, such that if someone is having an issue building their whatever, or needs a specific Grommit (or widget) to get it done, then there's someone else there, on the team, who's happy to help out. It's not a "I'm going to win this" challenge, it's more about "we're all going to get this done" thing.
We haven't done one for a while, and I wanted to get the group as big as possible. Hence the focus on making the theme as inclusive as possible. People want to build different things, and I didn't want the thing chosen as the theme to exclude those who didn't want to build that thing.
Specific thoughts;
1.
Yes, the idea behind making the challenge about the theme rather than the object being created was absolutely with the intention of increasing the number of people who could participate. To my mind "make what you wanted for Christmas" is equally valid as a challenge as "make a travel guitar" (or whatever). It's just a wider definition, to allow more people to participate. But, that's just my view, and my view carries no more weight than anyone else's.
2.
But you're absolutely right. There's no reason why we can't have numerous challenges. In fact, I think that's an excellent suggestion, and we explicitly should have more challenges rather than focusing everyone on one event in a year.
3.
And having a series of challenges would allow us to repeat some themes that people who did them previously don't want to do again (the £100 guitar being the example above). Already done that, don't want another cheapo, that's fine, sit this challenge out and take a look at next quarter's theme ...
4.
... to avoid there being lots of challenges running simultaneously (and perhaps some people who would have participated in more than one just not having the time to do so), I'd stagger them so that there's only one running at a time. 3 months seems like a decent amount of time to start and finish most things, so I'd suggest that we consider a quarterly cycle?
Time limits are a double-edged thing. If you don't have a target timescale, then the challenge runs forever. Initially, we picked a "winner", although winning isn't really the point. However, the target date does still act as some sort of incentive to get it done. Speaking personally, it drastically increases the chances that I'll get something actually done!
As for your subsequent comments on how the Photog forum organises things, that all sounds very sensible, and similar to how we've organised previous challenges here. My old dad was a semi-pro photographer, and I can remember plenty of evenings when he'd emerged from his darkroom with a set of prints that we'd have to comment on to help him decide which one to submit to one competition or other.
No answers, just more to discuss
This would hopefully increase the range of whats to be built, would allow those with specific skills (finishing, electronics or machining for example) to take specific jobs.
As the finished instrument can only reside with one person, then maybe they could be auctioned off and the proceeds to a charity nominated later.
Just a thought.
Adam
I can see a team-based challenge working though, and something a little different.
i think @TTony's idea of what I really wanted for Christmas is an excellent one.
Sounds good to me!
Also, I'd not get anything off the shelf and that would mean making my own neck... *gulp*.
However, I wonder if it might work if I did it as a cigar tin bass.......
This will more naturally limit expenditure while letting people use old and scrounged stuff plus their own skills to add value?
I certainly agree with that - several people doing the same challenge simultaneously is a big part of it. While I was writing my earlier post, it occurred to me that there is an educational or learning aspect to it as well, which is what led me to think of having some on-going challenges that anyone can take up whenever they want.
A big part of the Making & Modding section does seem to be about teaching or demonstration - it's almost part of the culture that folks post quite detailed info on their builds, or on specific techniques. We see much less of the opposite, where there are a couple of photos of bits of guitar, little in the way of talk, and then some photos of the finished article.
For me, making the lap steel was something of a watershed. It was my first scratch build of an instrument and I guess it helped prove to myself that I could actually do it. I see the conventional doublecut 6-string that I'm currently doing (paused since spring due to nice weather) as my 'apprentice build' - an attempt to put into practice everything I've learned so far, and an opportunity to learn further through actual craft rather than just reading and watching videos. (Knowledge informs practice, but doesn't tell you what it feels like to use tools and cut wood.)
I think at least some build threads are saying to those that haven't done it before, "go on, give it a go, it's not that hard". Mine certainly have this purpose in part - while I post as a way of seeking feedback from more experienced builders, there is very much an intent to hopefully inspire others to give it a try. (Other people's build threads in here had exactly that effect on me, which led to me trawling YouTube for more info in video form. The build a slide guitar challenge was the catalyst.)
With that in mind, I've been wondering if there's scope to have a small number of projects that are on-going for the purpose of encouraging people that are less experienced to take something on. Maybe not challenges in the sense of a group taking part at the same time, but still a challenge insofar as they're taken on with the aim of completing them. Maybe more like learning modules in an informal apprenticeship - defined steps aimed at people that want to go beyond things like pickup swaps. Projects that could be seen as a precursors to, and culminating in, doing a full scratch build.
Off the top of my head, they could be some or all of the following...
Something like this doesn't need to replace the challenges where people take something on simultaneously. (No reason why a similar challenge can't coexist with any of the above, especially if the learning projects don't have time or cost constraints.) The projects don't even need to be described as challenges if the aim is more about learning. (I like the idea of an informal apprenticeship.) Anyone taking on one of the projects should post a build thread, and the more experienced builders could chip in with ideas and suggestions to help them on their way. It's worth noting that the support aspect tends to happen already - the above is essentially just a way of offering some focus on the process of learning to scratch build by breaking it down into discrete steps.
I think what I'm driving at (as the idea forms in my head) is that Making & Modding is a great learning resource, and that maybe a little bit of structure in how learning can be approached will encourage more people to go beyond things like pickup swaps. In essence, illuminate the path by providing a series of doable projects that build on each other.
Nomad
Nobody loves me but my mother... and she could be jivin' too...
A point that I agree with, but different to the point of the challenges.
I'm not suggesting that, just because something (ie a challenge theme) has been done before, it shouldn't be done again. That's completely valid given that some people may want to do it again (applying their learning/experience) and others will have joined since it was done previously.
But the objective of using the challenges to share - or re-share - learning and experience might be covered a different way.
For example, @WezV posted his approach to wet-oiling as a thread here. That's now in our forum knowledge bank. Would Wez repeat the thread when someone asked about wet-oiling, or would he just point them at the original thread in the knowledge bank?
Similarly, we've done the build-a-kit and mod-a-guitar themes previously, and all the thread are here, in our knowledge bank (see caveat below). Would I expect the same knowlegeable regulars to join each challenge to be able to share their knowledge in real time (ie supporting a challenge with a repeat of those themes) again? Probably not - I can't see what they'd get out of it. Sure, a repeated-theme challenge would still be a learning experience for those involved, but it might not have the benefit of learning and experience from those who'd done it before.
And then you said ...
... which links to my caveat and my wondering whether we're aiming at slightly different objectives.
The search function here is not great. Unless you know/remember that there's a thread buried on page 537 from 5 years ago on a particular subject, there's little chance that you'll ever stumble across it. We've got the a lot of content for a great learning resource, but it's not really accessible. So it's not currently a useful resource.
I started an "index of really useful threads" when I had some spare time, but, tbh, it's woefully inadequate. There are plenty more threads that are really useful that should be indexed and stickied so that people can find them - including all the threads from previous challenges so that, if/when we repeat the themes, new participants can read back through the previous threads to see what was done, and how.
Which is why I think your objective is something different to what I'm envisaging with the challenges - and the deliberately vague and inclusive definition of the challenge in terms of a theme rather than an end product.
As you say, a M&M learning resource would be a huge asset to the forum and everyone ever doing any work on their instruments, whether as part of a challenge or not. I'd love to have a properly structured, indexed, accessible resource that everyone could use and learn from. With you 100% on that, and I'd like to consider how we could achieve that (though outside of this thread perhaps?).
But I'd also like to get a challenge going early next year with the specific objective of getting as many people involved as possible, so that it doesn't exclude people who don't want to build another kit guitar, don't want to build another £100 guitar, don't even want to build a guitar at all, (et al). It's just about the prompting/stimulating/encouraging involvement, and sharing the journey here as one of the many threads that the challenge will create. The lead-up to Christmas is generally busy for most people, hence starting early next year, and the theme of "what I wanted for Christmas" then ties in with the timing. And is about as inclusive as I could come up with.
We can, absolutely, then have numerous challenges going throughout the year which are less inclusive and more specific. And it'd be great if we could have done some sort of work in creating that learning resource - based on the content already here - by then.
@TTony, I agree that what I'm talking about seems to have evolved into something that's distinct from the challenges, although that wasn't clear to me at first.
I agree, also, that indexing stuff on forums can be onerous, both because they don't lend themselves to the structure of a more conventional web site, and because the nature of the content is that it's very dynamic and often full of peripheral chat alongside the meat of a subject like a build thread. For that reason, I wasn't suggesting that existing build threads should formally be part of the learning resource idea - at a certain point, the would-be participant has to do their own research (here, YouTube, wherever). It was more about providing a fairly simple focal point (probably little more than a sticky post) that describes an approachable way to take things further.
Anyway, probably best left for another discussion.
Nomad
Nobody loves me but my mother... and she could be jivin' too...