Ebay fun - returns!!!!

jpfamps

The DC resistance will affect the self resonance of the pickups (all other things being equal), however this may take the thread in a direction that we never recover from....

Regardless, I think that the key issue here is the fact the buyer didn't have the common sense and / or cojones to contact the seller before raising a dispute which has had negative consequences on the seller.

It's quite possible the seller doesn't have a multimeter (not everyone does!, so they quoted the specs from the manufacturers website.

Calibration, as ICBM says, may also be a factor here.

bgmartinsbridge

Never owned a multimeter and apart from gcse science thirty years ago, I've never used one and wouldn't know what to do with one :-)

poopot

TheGuitarWeasel said:
Yes I know I am a pickup manufacturer, and I am guilty of quoting DCR on my pickups, but this convention can't be changed unilaterally, all makers need to agree to a comparative output system that actually holds water. 

Start quoting both measurements!!!! Dc res and mv... only takes one person to start and the rest will follow!...

SteveRobinson

They'd need to agree an input standard first.

"750mV on E major chord using a set of Ernie Ball Super Slinky 3mm from the pole pieces, and a Tortex 1mm plectrum"

John_A

I do think @Ossyrocks has been given a bit of a hard time here, I can certainly hear the difference in a set of Stormy Mondays and a set Of mules, I have both, the specs read closer to the former, and he prefers the latter.

OilCityPickups

jpfamps said:

The DC resistance will affect the self resonance of the pickups (all other things being equal), however this may take the thread in a direction that we never recover from....

Regardless, I think that the key issue here is the fact the buyer didn't have the common sense and / or cojones to contact the seller before raising a dispute which has had negative consequences on the seller.

It's quite possible the seller doesn't have a multimeter (not everyone does!, so they quoted the specs from the manufacturers website.

Calibration, as ICBM says, may also be a factor here.

Indeed, but resonance is about tone, not perceived output/volume, and volume was the issue here. SteveRobinson said:

They'd need to agree an input standard first.

"750mV on E major chord using a set of Ernie Ball Super Slinky 3mm from the pole pieces, and a Tortex 1mm plectrum"

The standard I use is an A440 tuning fork rather than strings (too dependant on picking strength) ... it's always the same if placed in the same relative position.

SteveRobinson

TheGuitarWeasel said:

Indeed, but resonance is about tone, not perceived output/volume, and volume was the issue here. SteveRobinson said:

They'd need to agree an input standard first.

"750mV on E major chord using a set of Ernie Ball Super Slinky 3mm from the pole pieces, and a Tortex 1mm plectrum"

The standard I use is an A440 tuning fork rather than strings (too dependant on picking strength) ... it's always the same if placed in the same relative position.

I hope everyone realises that I wasn't suggesting that as a practical or realistic measure, just making a point that output is dependent on input.

Alegree

John_A said:

I do think @Ossyrocks has been given a bit of a hard time here, I can certainly hear the difference in a set of Stormy Mondays and a set Of mules, I have both, the specs read closer to the former, and he prefers the latter.


That's because you're using resistance as a benchmark of tonal characteristic as opposed to wind count. If the turns are the same (there's a very low margin of wind discrepancy) then they will sound like the latter regardless of their DCR specs being closer to the former 

John_A

Alegree said:

John_A said:

I do think @Ossyrocks has been given a bit of a hard time here, I can certainly hear the difference in a set of Stormy Mondays and a set Of mules, I have both, the specs read closer to the former, and he prefers the latter.


That's because you're using resistance as a benchmark of tonal characteristic as opposed to wind count. If the turns are the same (there's a very low margin of wind discrepancy) then they will sound like the latter regardless of their DCR specs being closer to the former 

I accept that, and a bit of variation is expected, but 10% is, in my opinion enough for the buyer to be concerned.  If he'd fitted them, found out he didn't like the sound compared to his others and then asked to return them that wouldn't be ideal either.  Would you not agree that 10% away from spec is an indication that the wind count isn't what it should be?

I also sympathise with the seller here, I just don't think giving the buyer a hard time is justified 

Alegree

John_A said:

Alegree said:

John_A said:

I do think @Ossyrocks has been given a bit of a hard time here, I can certainly hear the difference in a set of Stormy Mondays and a set Of mules, I have both, the specs read closer to the former, and he prefers the latter.


That's because you're using resistance as a benchmark of tonal characteristic as opposed to wind count. If the turns are the same (there's a very low margin of wind discrepancy) then they will sound like the latter regardless of their DCR specs being closer to the former 

I accept that, and a bit of variation is expected, but 10% is, in my opinion enough for the buyer to be concerned.  If he'd fitted them, found out he didn't like the sound compared to his others and then asked to return them that wouldn't be ideal either.  Would you not agree that 10% away from spec is an indication that the wind count isn't what it should be?

I also sympathise with the seller here, I just don't think giving the buyer a hard time is justified 

No I wouldn't agree. It's on the borderline, but 10% out due to low tension and on the thicker side of spec wire is possible. If 10% is quoted as the variance by the manufacturer (I have a feeling it has been at some point) then buying one of their products amounts to consenting to anything +-9.99% of stated spec

John_A

Didn't think 10% variance had been quoted by BK.  Either way, the issue is the buyer being given a hard time.  The pickups may be fine, they may not, but the variance was enough that he is concerned enough to ask for a replacement.  The ebay process isn't smart enough to include a nice polite 'bit concerned about the pickups so would like to return them' option, it's 'not as described' which is actually the case if the DCR was mentioned in the listing.  I fully appreciate this isn't the sellers fault, but it isn't the buyers either.

I think SD do quote +/- 10% so assume it is possible, but they are right at the outside of that.
i know I haven't seen anywhere near the number of pickups that you have, but have seen a lot, and don't remember any being more than 2-3% away from quoted specs

crunchman

John_A said:

I accept that, and a bit of variation is expected, but 10% is, in my opinion enough for the buyer to be concerned.  If he'd fitted them, found out he didn't like the sound compared to his others and then asked to return them that wouldn't be ideal either.  Would you not agree that 10% away from spec is an indication that the wind count isn't what it should be?

Not necessarily true.

I just Googled tolerances on wire diameter.  It varies by wire manufacturer but some of them quote figures equivalent to 10%.

Resistance is inversely proportional to area - which is proportional to the square of the radius.  Radius is directly related to diameter so would also have a potential 10% tolerance.  The maximum 10% tolerance would actually give a cross sectional area 21% bigger, which would give a DC resistance that is 17% lower.

I don't know the tolerance on the wire that Bare Knuckle use, but it is entirely possible that this has the same number of winds on it that the other Mules with higher resistance have.

It's also possible that it is a Stormy Monday.

The only way we would know for sure is for someone to take it apart, and count the winds, and to analyse the magnet to work out whether it's A2 or A4.

As others have said, DC resistance is not a good way to measure pickup output.

John_A

Sorry all.  I didn't want to get dragged in to the technicalities, I'm not really qualified to comment.  My point was just that there is enough variance for the buyer to have some concerns, so shouldn't be given a hard time for returning them

Alegree

John_A said:

Didn't think 10% variance had been quoted by BK.  Either way, the issue is the buyer being given a hard time.  The pickups may be fine, they may not, but the variance was enough that he is concerned enough to ask for a replacement.  The ebay process isn't smart enough to include a nice polite 'bit concerned about the pickups so would like to return them' option, it's 'not as described' which is actually the case if the DCR was mentioned in the listing.  I fully appreciate this isn't the sellers fault, but it isn't the buyers either.

I think SD do quote +/- 10% so assume it is possible, but they are right at the outside of that.
i know I haven't seen anywhere near the number of pickups that you have, but have seen a lot, and don't remember any being more than 2-3% away from quoted specs

You see, that's where the problem lies. 

Being concerned and the item being fundamentally defective are entirely different things. Ebay doesn't respect that, but theoretically if this were to go to court and OP found a quote from Tim Mills stating that BK works to a variance of +-10%, then the pickups would not be technically defective nor 'not as described'.

Ossyrocks

Hi Chaps,

Brad and I have sorted this out very amicably, and we are moving on. The pickups read low enough for me to be concerned that they weren't what I wanted, or expected. Brad accepted that, without hesitation and didn't give me a hard time at all. What followed here is what it is.

Interestingly, I contacted Wizz pickups this week about a set of their Premium Clone PAFs. Their website specified 8.3k for the bridge. I asked if this could be slightly overwound to 8.5k and they said yes no problem. So at least they are capable of producing pickups within a tighter tolerance than 10% of spec.

Before anyone says that I won't be able to hear the difference between 8.3k and 8.5k, yes you are probably right, but I do want a pickup on the higher side of the original PAF output range and this is at least one way of ensuring this happens.

All the best,
Rob.

John_A

Ossyrocks said:

Hi Chaps,

Brad and I have sorted this out very amicably, and we are moving on. The pickups read low enough for me to be concerned that they weren't what I wanted, or expected. Brad accepted that, without hesitation and didn't give me a hard time at all. What followed here is what it is.

Interestingly, I contacted Wizz pickups this week about a set of their Premium Clone PAFs. Their website specified 8.3k for the bridge. I asked if this could be slightly overwound to 8.5k and they said yes no problem. So at least they are capable of producing pickups within a tighter tolerance than 10% of spec.

Before anyone says that I won't be able to hear the difference between 8.3k and 8.5k, yes you are probably right, but I do want a pickup on the higher side of the original PAF output range and this is at least one way of ensuring this happens.

All the best,
Rob.

Pfft what are we going to argue about now?

Ossyrocks

John_A said:

Pfft what are we going to argue about now?

Well, we could argue about the relative merits of super expensive pickups vs cheaper alternatives when the Wizzes arrive.....

I'll do another video!

Rob.

rico

Right let me go and measure my (or what purport to be) Mules.

FelineGuitars

Ossyrocks said:

Hi Chaps,

Brad and I have sorted this out very amicably, and we are moving on. The pickups read low enough for me to be concerned that they weren't what I wanted, or expected. Brad accepted that, without hesitation and didn't give me a hard time at all. What followed here is what it is.

All the best,
Rob.

Well done chaps