NPD RYRA

Wazmeister

And again, lots of other people think foolishly, that there IS something good (in sound terms) about the RYRA...

These people (deluded as they clearly are) like something about this pedal, when compared to other klones.

@juansolo - just let us be eh, in our deluded naivety?

juansolo

Not a prob, if you prefer evangelism over informed opinion/science

juansolo

But point taken, I'm starting to feel like a stuck record now anyhow.

Wazmeister

juansolo said:

Not a prob, if you prefer evangelism over informed opinion/science

Or science over ears...

juansolo

Yep, at that point I'm out.

Wazmeister

@juansolo - mate, you clearly know how to build pedals, and know way more than me...

But are we all deluded ? Hoodwinked (good word) ? Or could there be something in the sound, not just facts, diagrams and science ? Im just keen to know...

Im personally too old in the tooth to follow hype, I think...

If I was you, Id make a huge batch and sell em and make some corn

juansolo

CBA. The klone thing has long since past for me. Mainly because of the hype surrounding it. It even annoys me to build them.

There has been science done on it because this whole thing got so daft a few years ago. You can measure and plot sound and it's a lot more reliable than your audible memory which lasts approx 10 seconds before it starts to get shaky. Hence the need really to do what TPS guys do and have them all plugged into a loop so you can switch between them. Even then you add in the random factor of the player rather than a tone generator or a recorded loop. Add into that that analogue electronics by their very nature are variable. So different pedals made by the same people to exactly the same design using parts sourced from the same batches can still sound different.

It's the size of these differences that I have issue with. Because the size of that difference between two klones made the same way is never that large. The same sounds might be in different places on the knobs, but they're usually there or there about. The big differences come when people deviate from the design. Now the fact that a particular RYRA pedal sounds remarkably similar to the TPS guys silver klon would lead me to conclude that the builder isn't straying from the original design. Or at least his design is the same as that particular silver klon.

As I say, we had to change a part on the ones we built to sound like the gold klon we had because the standard trace was noticeably lower in the mids. Which became a popular change with builders on the Madbean forum. That is why it's entirely possible that might be the magic change the RYRA has, given that the builder used to hang out there (hence my curiosity).

In my opinion you're not deluded. I've had pedals sound vastly different to me day to day and be the same actual pedal. That pedal appears to be is a very nicely made Klone, and that's great if that's what you want. You know at least one of them sounds just like at least one Klon which seems proof enough that the dude is making them properly, and you've made a good choice in buying one if you want a klone that sounds like a Klon.

Once again, I'm genuinely not trying to piss on anyone's chips, I'm just offering an opinion from an electronics POV.

Just to re-iterate: It appears to be a very nice pedal and you should be happy knowing it's got good components in there, the builder does a good job putting it together, and when back-to-backed with an actual Klon, it sounded like it. It's also nicely presented and repairable, uses a nice reliable stomp, etc. Basically, if you want a klone, it looks like a good 'un.

Wazmeister

juansolo said:

CBA. The klone thing has long since past for me. Mainly because of the hype surrounding it. It even annoys me to build them.

There has been science done on it because this whole thing got so daft a few years ago. You can measure and plot sound and it's a lot more reliable than your audible memory which lasts approx 10 seconds before it starts to get shaky. Hence the need really to do what TPS guys do and have them all plugged into a loop so you can switch between them. Even then you add in the random factor of the player rather than a tone generator or a recorded loop. Add into that that analogue electronics are exactly that, analogue and variable. So different pedals made by the same people to exactly the same design using parts sourced from the same batches can still sound different.

It's the size of these differences that I have issue with. Because the size of that difference between two klones made the same way is never that large. The same sounds might be in different places on the knobs, but they're usually there. The big differences come when people deviate from the design. Now the fact that the particular RYRA pedal sounds remarkably similar to the TPS guys silver klon would lead me to conclude that the builder isn't straying from the original design. Or at least his design is the same as that particular silver klon.

As I say, we had to change a part on the ones we built to sound like the gold klon we had because the standard trace was noticeably lower in the mids. That became a popular change with builders on the Madbean forum who produced it. Which is why it's entirely possible that might be the magic change the RYRA has, given that the builder used to hang out there (hence my curiosity).

In my opinion you're not deluded. I've had pedals sound vastly different to me day to day and be the same actual pedal. That pedal appears to be is a very nicely made Klone, and that's great if that's what you want. You know at least one of them sounds just like at least one Klon which seems proof enough that the dude is making them properly, and you've made a good choice in buying one if you want a klone that sounds like a Klon.

Once again, I'm genuinely not trying to piss on anyone's chips, I'm just offering an opinion from an electronics POV.

Good and interesting post mate...

It's strange for me personally because I was so anti-klone myself for so long; but I kept trying em, and encountered them on other boards. The RYRA (and maybe the ARC one) were the first ones where I thought "hello, maybe there is something here..."

I have played 3 or 4 KTRs though, and thought that they were very average !

Does the variance then, between the same type of klone, apply to all pedals ?

juansolo

Analogue pedals, yep, can do. The variance can be not much at all to WTF happened, depending on the circuit and how sensitive to variance it is. Old fuzzes particularly so and anything that needs biasing or setting up in some way. The klone isn't really that sensitive unless you put the wrong value in somewhere (BTDT) and back-to-back testing picks that up pretty quickly.

The KTR is not a pedal I'd recommend in all honesty simply down to it's construction being all SMD and using a 3PDT stomp. Which makes it tough to repair and the blue Chinese stomps are not great these days. Sonically, you know the values are gonna be the same as it was specced by Mr Klon. I've heard a Rockett pedal that was significantly down on output volume vs another Rockett pedal. Now that I suspect was faulty/wrong as it's the biggest difference I've ever heard between klones (Rockett, FWIW, made the first run of KTRs so also know the correct schematic/part values). It wasn't ours so I didn't investigate further. The Soul Food does deviate from the standard klone design in a few respects and while it sounds kloney, it's noticeably different back-to-back. If you played it on it's own however seeking the klon sound, you'd probably be quite happy with it. But those are even more cheaply made, so you're getting what you pay for there in terms of reliability.

But you really have to put them back to back on a switcher to conclusively say anything when it comes to the klones just because of the sheer unreliability of human hearing memory. Sometimes the differences are big, no doubt about it, sometimes they're smaller than you think. In a band situation most differences become completely irrelevant if the pedal is in the right ball park.

juansolo

That said, you do get odd pedals that rule... Noticeably so. It's usually stuff with transistors in it though rather than op-amps, and you just hit a perfect set occasionally. Analogue electronics man, they're a pain in the arse sometimes

Adam_MD

juansolo said:

As I say, we had to change a part on the ones we built to sound like the gold klon we had because the standard trace was noticeably lower in the mids. Which became a popular change with builders on the Madbean forum. That is why it's entirely possible that might be the magic change the RYRA has, given that the builder used to hang out there (hence my curiosity).

@Wazmeister I socketed the cap @juansolo is talking about on one of my klones and it makes a big difference to the tone definitely gave it more mods over the stock values.  Out of curiosity would you take the back off yours and have a look to see if it uses the stock klon value or if it’s modded?  

The orange cap to the top left of the white one marked 2n2 would be the one we’re talking about.  If it says 3n9 it’s the original Klon value and if it says 6n8 or 8n2 then it’s using Juansolos suggested value.  

It is a very well made pedal with really good parts plus the bonus of having the correct Klon knobs.  I do prefer the look of the older ones without the white RYRA logo though.  I’m not really digging the archer graphic and think it would be nicer if it just had the logo on the bottom left.  

juansolo

TLDR and all that: the tone thing, why I don't sell them, and other stuff...

A plot was done on the Klone science thread on Madbean to show what the two known Klon tone configurations do plus the 8n2. It's a toss up for me which I prefer; the reversed resistors with a 3n9 (BYOC trace) or the standard resistors with an 8n2. The latter matches the gold klon in terms of sound, but I think the reversed resistors makes the tone control work better. The stock config I've always found to be a bit thin.

It's the only deviation we've ever made on klones we've built. The very early ones are stock to the Chittum trace (probably first 3 or so). The guy who owned the gold klon said it didn't sound right and lent us it to find out why. We all basically sat with it for ages until we settled on that tiny mod to make it sound the same. So the vast majority of the ones after that we built are like that. Because that was our reference. FWIW, we have a reference klone which is the one we matched to the gold Klon, they're nigh on identical sounding. That thing is beat up to hell One day I'll get a Ceriatone box and put it in there, just to mess with people.

Anyhow, when Rej from Grind was toying with going commercial (which he never did), we decided to come up with a nice klone layout that was something different to the usual builds. Not wanting to do the same as everyone else (at the time), we did one that'd fit in a small enclosure that was really nicely laid out and easy to build, as that's a lot of keeping costs down. As far as I'm aware there were two runs of protos done, his and mine. I bought enough parts in to populate the lot (about 10 pedals) and built the lot up with a view to selling them. Which sat on a shelf for the best part of a year. In the meantime the Soul Food came along and the new run of KTRs, effectively killing the klone market. Which I think needed doing in all honesty as it was all getting pretty silly at that point. It didn't leave me out of pocket to be fair, but I didn't make any money on them either when I finally let them go at £60 a pop. It just isn't worth my time making them for that. Hence why I don't sell them.

My view on the circuit is mixed, it's a great 'more' pedal. I personally don't think it's the holy grail and a lot of what it does can be achieved more simply with other effects. But there's no doubt it does it's thing, mainly down to it's blended gain and a lot of people like that. If you want a dirty OD with a mid-hump I still stand by that there's not much to beat the good old tubescreamer. It does a lot of what the klon does in terms of tone shaping (cuts bass and emphasises mids which makes everything sound tighter). Used as a clean boost it's not as great to be fair, which is how most people use their klones.

It's just that the TS has a stigma about it for some reason, and people seem to go out of their way not to get them. I did a blind test one time with a guy who was undecided about the OD he wanted. I set up about 5 or 6 od's how he liked them, had them out of view and was swapping them while he was playing. What was interesting was that he preferred the sound of the tubescreamer when he didn't know what he was playing (I didn't tell him this until afterwards), when he could see the pedals and was switching between them himself, he preferred the klon. This I think is a perfect demonstration of human nature and how you perceive something to be can effect how you hear it...

I'm waffling now, I'm not even sure what point I was trying to make is, but it's early, I have a pint of tea and I'm feeling verbosely philosophical

Adam_MD

@juansolo I found the reversed resistors and 3n9 has a fuzzy edge to the breakup and sounds a little duller than the stock resistors with 8n2.  I think you and Cleggy nailed it when you matched the gold Klon.  

The thing I still don’t get is the KTR matches the Chittum trace which backs up the accuracy of that trace.  If a common criticism of klones is the original klons have more mids and the klones sound thin I don’t understand why.  What’s different with the originals that they would have more mids in the stock config with those values vs using an 8n2 on the tone pot to add more mids into the signal?  

juansolo

We know that Finnegan messed with the formula a little and that the Chittum trace is accurate to the Klon he traced (also the KTR). But there are definitely a difference in the mids between a Chittum build and the particular klon we were comparing it to. We'll never know for sure because the thing is worth so much money now that it'd be insane to risk de-gooping it to confirm it. Maybe if it dies one day he'll let us have at it... Until then, we'll never know. Also bear in mind the 8n2 was arrived at by 3 blokes in a room with the Klon and Klone on a switch box using our ears. Basically until we couldn't tell which pedal we were playing through. It was totally non-technical and is in no way to be considered to be an officially set in stone thing. It's unlikely that would have been a tolerance thing. He might have put the wrong cap in that one. With the goop there's just no way to tell.

FWIW when the guy did the lab thing he also did the various tone configs and plotted them, the 8n2 doing exactly as expected over the 3n9 and lifting the mids more. Good to know that at least back then, my ears still worked pretty well

horsehead

juansolo said:

Probably nothing. Most klones stick to the Chittum trace, and therefore the biggest differences are usually down to tolerances (analogue electronics used in guitar effects can have anything from a 1% to 20% variance depending on the part). It's rare anyone deviates from this established formula.

There are a couple of variances based around the tone resistors/cap that can cause the knob to act differently or for it to have fractionally more mids. But the differences are small and you'd unlikely notice unless you were running them back-to-back and flipping between them.

It is not a massively variable circuit like something using old germanium transistors. The Unicorn tear diodes are used for clipping on the dirt side of the circuit that is rarely used by the majority of people who use the effect as a clean booster. Even then, we know what they are and their fv, so again, if they're not straying too far from the Chittum trace then it's not going to be massively different.

Really, if anyone actually wants to know if there's any difference bob one over to us for a couple of weeks. If only to settle your mind. Tracing it is a piece of piss and the only things I'd need to take out are the ge diodes to measure the fv of them, which I could then put back.

Indeed I've never seen the insides of one of these, someone want to bob the back off and take a pic? Out of personal interest more than anything else.

I love it when he talks techinical

juansolo

*licks eyebrow*

Adam_MD

Wazmeister said:

juansolo said:

CBA. The klone thing has long since past for me. Mainly because of the hype surrounding it. It even annoys me to build them.

There has been science done on it because this whole thing got so daft a few years ago. You can measure and plot sound and it's a lot more reliable than your audible memory which lasts approx 10 seconds before it starts to get shaky. Hence the need really to do what TPS guys do and have them all plugged into a loop so you can switch between them. Even then you add in the random factor of the player rather than a tone generator or a recorded loop. Add into that that analogue electronics are exactly that, analogue and variable. So different pedals made by the same people to exactly the same design using parts sourced from the same batches can still sound different.

It's the size of these differences that I have issue with. Because the size of that difference between two klones made the same way is never that large. The same sounds might be in different places on the knobs, but they're usually there. The big differences come when people deviate from the design. Now the fact that the particular RYRA pedal sounds remarkably similar to the TPS guys silver klon would lead me to conclude that the builder isn't straying from the original design. Or at least his design is the same as that particular silver klon.

As I say, we had to change a part on the ones we built to sound like the gold klon we had because the standard trace was noticeably lower in the mids. That became a popular change with builders on the Madbean forum who produced it. Which is why it's entirely possible that might be the magic change the RYRA has, given that the builder used to hang out there (hence my curiosity).

In my opinion you're not deluded. I've had pedals sound vastly different to me day to day and be the same actual pedal. That pedal appears to be is a very nicely made Klone, and that's great if that's what you want. You know at least one of them sounds just like at least one Klon which seems proof enough that the dude is making them properly, and you've made a good choice in buying one if you want a klone that sounds like a Klon.

Once again, I'm genuinely not trying to piss on anyone's chips, I'm just offering an opinion from an electronics POV.

Good and interesting post mate...

It's strange for me personally because I was so anti-klone myself for so long; but I kept trying em, and encountered them on other boards. The RYRA (and maybe the ARC one) were the first ones where I thought "hello, maybe there is something here..."

I have played 3 or 4 KTRs though, and thought that they were very average !

Does the variance then, between the same type of klone, apply to all pedals ?

Pretty relevant video here from Brian Wampler discussing this very topic though focusing on ts9/808 @juansolo  @Wazmeister

https://youtu.be/3c5Ar-iaWRE

juansolo

Pots are all over the place, they're usually 20% tolerance and will make probably the biggest difference. But as he says tolerances effect all parts of the circuit and even small ones can make two seemingly identical pedals sound slightly different. It's the nature of the beast.

garfy

Another one here whose a little late to the party. Great pedal the RYRA, not concerned on the hows & whys...it works incredibly well in my set up, mixing with Cornish, TC, Strymon and Drybell perfectly.
Cheers @thomholmes ;