How good is a grade 8 guitar player?

flying_pie

I've done a lot of musical threatre and my experience of the orchestral guitarists is that they're technically great players but their tonal choices leave a lot to be desired, especially if faced with rock. 

That's just my experience though - I'm sure there are plenty who have orchestral discipline and can rock properly with the right sound 

Dominic

Strange dichotomy
I am essentially a pianist of 50 years since a small child ........I have done classical and jazz .....I'm ok but far from good.
My last classical teacher, a  friend, was an astonishing pianist who had been giving concerts with Orchestra and recitals for years including taking residential month-long masterclasses in Vienna with very eminent Pianists and tutors.
 Despite all the Concertos and some recordings he was nothing more than a record player machine.If the music was put in front of him ( classical type manuscript ) he would sketch sightread through it pretty amazingly and then take it away for a week and put 100 hours into perfecting every nuance. 2 weeks later as he was working on something else he would have completely forgotten it.If I asked him to play Baa Baa Blacksheep off the cuff he wouldn't be able to do it without ten minutes working it out.
If I asked him to play a standard like Autumn leaves he wouldn't be able without sheet music and even then it would be the most wooden and boring rendition -If I then asked him to swing it and improvise a bit he would be totally incapable and get up from the piano and say "I don't do that sort of thing" in a haughty way as if it was well beneath his musical intellect.
HE COULDN'T DO IT ! despite having performed all movements of  Beethoven's Emperor Sonata to a music Society the day before.
 The discipline, mindset and remit of classical musicians is very often automaton machine like and very untranslatable whether it's Guitar,Piano etc .............of course there are those few who excel at both..........but quite rare.

darthed1981

Neill said:

Of course Nigel Tufnell goes up to grade 9.

Grade 11 surely

VimFuego

Dominic said:

Strange dichotomy
I am essentially a pianist of 50 years since a small child ........I have done classical and jazz .....I'm ok but far from good.
My last classical teacher, a  friend, was an astonishing pianist who had been giving concerts with Orchestra and recitals for years including taking residential month-long masterclasses in Vienna with very eminent Pianists and tutors.
 Despite all the Concertos and some recordings he was nothing more than a record player machine.If the music was put in front of him ( classical type manuscript ) he would sketch sightread through it pretty amazingly and then take it away for a week and put 100 hours into perfecting every nuance. 2 weeks later as he was working on something else he would have completely forgotten it.If I asked him to play Baa Baa Blacksheep off the cuff he wouldn't be able to do it without ten minutes working it out.
If I asked him to play a standard like Autumn leaves he wouldn't be able without sheet music and even then it would be the most wooden and boring rendition -If I then asked him to swing it and improvise a bit he would be totally incapable and get up from the piano and say "I don't do that sort of thing" in a haughty way as if it was well beneath his musical intellect.
HE COULDN'T DO IT ! despite having performed all movements of  Beethoven's Emperor Sonata to a music Society the day before.
 The discipline, mindset and remit of classical musicians is very often automaton machine like and very untranslatable whether it's Guitar,Piano etc .............of course there are those few who excel at both..........but quite rare.

and yet I know plenty of classically trained musicians who can improvise, play by ear, switch timings mid piece, transpose by ear and so on. Anecdotes eh...

stuagu

Sporky said:

stuagu said:

 in my experience these technically trained and graded musicians ( guitarists , drumers singers)  dont tend to be suited to playing with anyone else. 

Never seen an orchestra?

Of course, , but thats not  "in my experience" , my experience is playing with musicians in local bands for 36 years and thats what i find, my experience is limited of course.  
I think your orchestra comment is interesting tho, in those situations i imagine its very structured and if so makes the same point. 
Horses for courses i suppose. 

Neill

 @fastonebaz was looking for typical rock guitar tunes that might serve as a benchmark for a "grade 8" player.  Like when a tab is described as "intermediate" or "expert", so if you can nail it you think you must have reached a certain level of competence.  I understand there's a lot more to grades than that but perhaps those who have some experience of doing the grades can suggest one or two "benchmark" tunes?

stratman3142

Neill said:

 @fastonebaz was looking for typical rock guitar tunes that might serve as a benchmark for a "grade 8" player.  Like when a tab is described as "intermediate" or "expert", so if you can nail it you think you must have reached a certain level of competence.  I understand there's a lot more to grades than that but perhaps those who have some experience of doing the grades can suggest one or two "benchmark" tunes?

I haven't actually done them but I did get the Rock School books as I said earlier and at one point learned Meet Darth Ear, which is a bit of a bugger to say the least. It would take me a very long time to get it into my head again.

There's a clip of someone called Rayson Kong playing 'Meet Darth Ear' below and he also demonstrates some of the other tunes from the grade 8 book which appear to be much easier (for me at least).

Keefy

If someone has passed Grade 8 in rock/pop guitar, they have demonstrated that they can play a number of set pieces, read music, and maybe improvise to the required standard.

As to how 'good' they are, we are usually talking about how well they perform in a band situation. That involves a much broader skill set than just technical ability, including (in no particular order) listening, timing/feel, choice of sound, playing in the right idiom, punctuality, flexibility, etc.

I often feel my technical ability is limited by not being able to play particularly fast, but I have learned to play what sounds 'right' so I tend to get quite a bit of dep work.

Phil_aka_Pip

I think Rockschool examiners do take account of the things on @Keefy's list as far as the exam format allows. It's not just about reproducing technical exercises and set pieces accurately. Even the punctuality bit is about turning up to the exam on time and getting ready to play within acceptable timescales.

hassleham

I played Always With Me, Always With You for my Rockschool Grade 8 around 7 years ago.

Roland

Passing a driving test doesn’t mean that you’re an accomplished driver. Simply that you’ve met the minimum standard necessary to be let loose on the road without a supervisor. That’s when the next stage of learning begins.

The “couldn’t play in a band” response is true, but a red herring. Grade exams measure things which are easy to measure. There are aspects of band playing which can be taught but, like driving, there are other skills and experiences needed.

I’ve seen primary school children who were taught music 1:1 who can pass grades, but can’t play with others because they’ve not yet learned to listen to more than their own instrument. Conversely, put a class taught guitarist and a class taught saxophonist together with a suitable score, and they’ll play together in time and with complimentary volume.

JerkMoans

FWIW not quite Grade 8 but I passed Trinity Grade 7 last year at the ripe old age of 46.  I don't consider myself to be a very good or accomplished guitarist by any means, but the tunes I chose to hammer out to pass the thing were 'Hey Joe' by Jimi, 'La Grange' by ZZ Top, and Clapton's version of 'Hide Away'.  Each required virtually note for note renditions of rhythm parts and some solos, with extended segments for improvised solos as well.

I still cannot read music and know nothing of theory but doing a few grades over the last couple of years has provided me with focus for learning techniques and practising (albeit not nearly enough).

I'm giving G8 a swerve at the moment for various reasons, not least because I'm not keen on the widdly stuff on the syllabus book I bought (Vai/Van Halen/Rush/Dream Theater) so the only piece I actually liked (and am struggling through) is 'Maggot Brain' by Funkadelic. 

Returning to the OP's question, I suppose the answer is 'it depends'.  I suspect some G8 players are very very good indeed, with a menu of techniques and a deep understanding of theory.  My own experience suggests that it's possible to muddle through playing the pieces but still with little concept of why particular notes go in particular place.

Keefy

Phil_aka_Pip said:

I think Rockschool examiners do take account of the things on @Keefy's list as far as the exam format allows. It's not just about reproducing technical exercises and set pieces accurately. Even the punctuality bit is about turning up to the exam on time and getting ready to play within acceptable timescales.

Fair point!

Grunfeld

My take on this, and it seems to be coming through with people's experiences, is that "being able to play" is actually a cluster of different skill sets.  I suppose they should have different names but it's called "being able to play."
If playing at grade 8 has been your only goal then that's all you'll be good for. 

Decades ago the mate I learned guitar with went off touring and I later remember he was trying to tell me that absolutely no amount of bedroom practice was ever going to give me what I needed to play in a band and the only thing to do was play in a band, however badly at first and become skilled in playing in a band.  I didn't believe him but he turned out to be right. 
I can play in a band now but I'd probably stuff up Grade 8 and wouldn't have a chance in an orchestra.  I'd probably struggle a bit with a solo gig because I've not done any.  All these skills are quite specific. 

Lestratcaster

As a tutor the highest level player I am teaching is currently doing Grade 7 in the RGT Grades. However in the 7 years they've been doing lessons with me I don't think they're fully accomplished at all the music aspects of guitar playing yet, tone, touch, timing and taste. Whilst they are very good I still think they need more years honing their ear and feel for music.

I don't necessarily you ever stop learning on the guitar, whether you're a grade 1 or 8. I achieved a degree in music performance in 2011, I don't know what grade that is equivalent to but I'm still picking up new things all the time. I feel my accuracy and feel for music has improved a lot. 

There's people who have no grades or training at all but have incredible touch and tone, vs players who have had all the training but can't play a single song by an artist.