Setting Nut Height From Open String?

ICBM

thegummy said:

If anyone knows a good reason (or any reason) please tell me.

It was done intentionally by Leo Fender to stop players messing with it themselves and causing warranty problems.

yocky

How big an issue is cutting the nut slots so that the whole string sits lower than the top of the nut? I always read the top of the string should be proud of the nut.

I had a really bad issue with notes at the first few frets on D, G and B being noticeably sharp because of how high they were sitting. I corrected it in pretty much the method described above and now it seems fine, but the strings are sitting below the top of the nut and now in slots that look too wide if I'm honest because I had  to lower them so much.

ICBM

yocky said:

How big an issue is cutting the nut slots so that the whole string sits lower than the top of the nut? I always read the top of the string should be proud of the nut.

It's irrelevant. The sides of the groove can't touch the string above its halfway point even if they were an inch tall.

The only difference it makes is that you can catch your hand on it if it's too tall.

Personally I like the whole of the string to be in the groove, or even a bit deeper than that on the thin strings, so they definitely can't jump out even when playing and bending hard.

thegummy

ICBM said:

thegummy said:

If anyone knows a good reason (or any reason) please tell me.

It was done intentionally by Leo Fender to stop players messing with it themselves and causing warranty problems.

That's really interesting, I had assumed that originally that's just where it was put and then later someone came up with the idea of the allen key at the headstock thing.

It just annoys me that they still have it on the bottom on guitars made today.

thegummy

yocky said:

How big an issue is cutting the nut slots so that the whole string sits lower than the top of the nut? I always read the top of the string should be proud of the nut.

I had a really bad issue with notes at the first few frets on D, G and B being noticeably sharp because of how high they were sitting. I corrected it in pretty much the method described above and now it seems fine, but the strings are sitting below the top of the nut and now in slots that look too wide if I'm honest because I had  to lower them so much.

If the nut achieves big things, or even as long as it tries its best, the whole string will be proud of it.

Fuengi

ICBM said:

thegummy said:

If anyone knows a good reason (or any reason) please tell me.

It was done intentionally by Leo Fender to stop players messing with it themselves and causing warranty problems.

Which is fine if it has the right amount of relief in it when it lands in your hands. Mine is an Allparts neck. 

yocky

thegummy said:

yocky said:

How big an issue is cutting the nut slots so that the whole string sits lower than the top of the nut? I always read the top of the string should be proud of the nut.

If the nut achieves big things, or even as long as it tries its best, the whole string will be proud of it.

Dad? Is that you?

WezV

ICBM said:

yocky said:

How big an issue is cutting the nut slots so that the whole string sits lower than the top of the nut? I always read the top of the string should be proud of the nut.

It's irrelevant. The sides of the groove can't touch the string above its halfway point even if they were an inch tall.

The only difference it makes is that you can catch your hand on it if it's too tall.

Personally I like the whole of the string to be in the groove, or even a bit deeper than that on the thin strings, so they definitely can't jump out even when playing and bending hard.

i was also always told that the wound strings should sit slightly proud and the plain ones more level with the nut.

On most guitars, its purely an aesthetic choice.   

But yeah, totally irrelevant and can actually cause issues on some guitars.   Looking at the wall of guitars in front of me, i still aim for it on most of mine

thegummy

yocky said:

thegummy said:

yocky said:

How big an issue is cutting the nut slots so that the whole string sits lower than the top of the nut? I always read the top of the string should be proud of the nut.

If the nut achieves big things, or even as long as it tries its best, the whole string will be proud of it.

Dad? Is that you?

Quite possibly. What nightclubs did your mum frequent?

Fuengi

Did it this morning, possibly the most enjoyable job I've done on a guitar. It makes such a huge instant difference to the feel, playability and in this instance the intonation of the open chords it was an really rewarding. 

I found that putting a business card on the headstock side of the nut not only protected the wood the other side of the nut from the file, but also gave me an angle to follow. 

Thanks for the tips gents. 

thegummy

Can I ask the opinion of those who file their own nuts (ouch) - do you agree with me that it's very difficult and best left to professionals even if one's able to do other parts of the setup easily?

I'm starting to consider getting another set of files and having another go at learning the skill. It's expensive and not something I'll be able to use many times in life (though maybe I could start doing friends guitars if I get good) but I'm just losing patience with not being able to get my guitar set up properly during lockdown.

What do you think?

richardhomer

thegummy said:

Can I ask the opinion of those who file their own nuts (ouch) - do you agree with me that it's very difficult and best left to professionals even if one's able to do other parts of the setup easily?

I'm starting to consider getting another set of files and having another go at learning the skill. It's expensive and not something I'll be able to use many times in life (though maybe I could start doing friends guitars if I get good) but I'm just losing patience with not being able to get my guitar set up properly during lockdown.

What do you think?

The trick is just not to file too much before checking the adjustment you’ve made. It’s pretty much impossible to cock up, if you’re careful.

Proper files are essential though. 

WezV

its one of those jobs where it is easy to cock up, but also easy to fix when you do. You either start with a new nut, or fill a slot with baking powder and superglue to re-cut the existing one.

You are probably going to try and go as low as possible at some point and have that decision to make.

I was cutting nuts from bone blanks the other day, and i screwed up one by making the first one left handed... but it only takes me about 15 minutes to go a rough sawn lump of bone to a nut that is 95% there and ready for gluing.  Probably spend twice as long as that on the final nut slotting and tweaking

thegummy

richardhomer said:

thegummy said:

Can I ask the opinion of those who file their own nuts (ouch) - do you agree with me that it's very difficult and best left to professionals even if one's able to do other parts of the setup easily?

I'm starting to consider getting another set of files and having another go at learning the skill. It's expensive and not something I'll be able to use many times in life (though maybe I could start doing friends guitars if I get good) but I'm just losing patience with not being able to get my guitar set up properly during lockdown.

What do you think?

The trick is just not to file too much before checking the adjustment you’ve made. It’s pretty much impossible to cock up, if you’re careful.

Proper files are essential though. 

What made it so difficult is that the ideal height is pretty much one push with the file away from being too low and it's quite hard to judge that you're at the ideal spot - that's where the years of experience comes in to play, the experienced people will know when they should stop.

If I erred on the side of caution then it's putting all the money and effort in and still ending up with a poorer result than if I put it in to a shop.

Going a bit off topic, I think part of the reason I'm struggling to find a shop is because the few people I trust are busy due to the pandemic and I'm very cautious to try somewhere new because I once put a guitar in to a shop with a good reputation and they didn't even seem to touch the nut much, if any, and left it still too high.

thegummy

WezV said:

its one of those jobs where it is easy to cock up, but also easy to fix when you do. You either start with a new nut, or fill a slot with baking powder and superglue to re-cut the existing one.

You are probably going to try and go as low as possible at some point and have that decision to make.

I was cutting nuts from bone blanks the other day, and i screwed up one by making the first one left handed... but it only takes me about 15 minutes to go a rough sawn lump of bone to a nut that is 95% there and ready for gluing.  Probably spend twice as long as that on the final nut slotting and tweaking

When I did have the files the first time I went too low on a LP and tried the baking soda thing. I actually can't remember precisely why but I wasn't happy with the result and that's what made me give up.

Fuengi

I used my new Hosco set and found it pretty easy to get a good result. Because you can pop the strings in and out you can literally check after every run of the file. You can also use a lighter touch! 

WezV

Fuengi said:

I used my new Hosco set and found it pretty easy to get a good result. Because you can pop the strings in and out you can literally check after every run of the file. You can also use a lighter touch! 

How many have you done?

You might not have messed up the first, but most will find they mess up at least one of the first 5    There is also a learning curve with the files and materials. What is one sweep on tusq might be 5 sweeps on bone.  

It is an easy job with the right tools, but there is still some skill in it. Its all good learning experience.

thegummy said:

WezV said:

its one of those jobs where it is easy to cock up, but also easy to fix when you do. You either start with a new nut, or fill a slot with baking powder and superglue to re-cut the existing one.

You are probably going to try and go as low as possible at some point and have that decision to make.

I was cutting nuts from bone blanks the other day, and i screwed up one by making the first one left handed... but it only takes me about 15 minutes to go a rough sawn lump of bone to a nut that is 95% there and ready for gluing.  Probably spend twice as long as that on the final nut slotting and tweaking

When I did have the files the first time I went too low on a LP and tried the baking soda thing. I actually can't remember precisely why but I wasn't happy with the result and that's what made me give up.

There is skill in the repair too.   Works best with tightly packed powder and a spot of thin super glue.

taking thin CA glue anywhere near a guitar is risky in itself, its thinner than water and flows in unexpected ways


 Done well, you wouldn't know about it

Fuengi

WezV said:

Fuengi said:

I used my new Hosco set and found it pretty easy to get a good result. Because you can pop the strings in and out you can literally check after every run of the file. You can also use a lighter touch! 

How many have you done?

You might not have messed up the first, but most will find they mess up at least one of the first 5    There is also a learning curve with the files and materials. What is one sweep on tusq might be 5 sweeps on bone.  

It is an easy job with the right tools, but there is still some skill in it. Its all good learning experience.

Just the one in bone. Maybe I got lucky.I've got some spares I might have another practice on and will be back here cursing once I've ruined those. Only £4 a pop though. 

thegummy

WezV said:

There is skill in the repair too.   Works best with tightly packed powder and a spot of thin super glue.

taking thin CA glue anywhere near a guitar is risky in itself, its thinner than water and flows in unexpected ways


 Done well, you wouldn't know about it

I don't think I put much focus on "packing" the powder, if I remember rightly I think I just stacked it in then put the superglue, maybe that lead to the disappointment but I really can't remember what the reason I wasn't happy was.

Superglue defo is dangerous near guitars! I had a big mishap with it. Well, more of the glue remover than I stupidly tried to use in panic to get the glue off not stopping to realise that the remover itself is a harsh chemical. That was a humbling and expensive moment!

Re: the "might not mess up the first one" - I didn't either, I did a few guitars that worked out very well then got to the bad one.

What put me off doing any more myself, despite some successful tries, was that I couldn't see any way to know when you're at the point where one more swipe with the file will be one too many.

I have heard of a method using feeler gauges to measure the height of the fret and then use the gauges themselves next to the nut as a barrier to stop at. Might try that method.

thegummy

Fuengi said:

WezV said:

Fuengi said:

I used my new Hosco set and found it pretty easy to get a good result. Because you can pop the strings in and out you can literally check after every run of the file. You can also use a lighter touch! 

How many have you done?

You might not have messed up the first, but most will find they mess up at least one of the first 5    There is also a learning curve with the files and materials. What is one sweep on tusq might be 5 sweeps on bone.  

It is an easy job with the right tools, but there is still some skill in it. Its all good learning experience.

Just the one in bone. Maybe I got lucky.I've got some spares I might have another practice on and will be back here cursing once I've ruined those. Only £4 a pop though. 

Remember that going too far is just one direction it can go wrong in - not filing it deep enough might not ruin the nut but it means the problem hasn't been fixed.