What Fanned Frets Are REALLY For!

octatonic

WezV said:

The point is your post is a click bait style link with no actual info.  You have stated what you think the misinformation is, but only linked to the real info.

Exactly.
It is all about driving traffic to the video and is entirely self-serving.
When called on it he gets massively defensive.

missmisstreater

Damn right I'm easy to wind up - call me whatever you like. Fat. Unfunny. Sloppy. Greedy. Wrong. I don't care, I've had it all. But I'll draw the line and someone making out I don't contribute. I'll give time to anyone that needs my help and never ask for anything in return. I bust my balls day in day out to try and give back and help people in the way I was helped when I was younger.

But message received. No more posts to my Youtube. I genuinely couldn't care less. They don't result in any clicks anyway. I do it because if it answers ONE person, then it's worth it.

octatonic

missmisstreater said:

Damn right I'm easy to wind up - call me whatever you like. Fat. Unfunny. Sloppy. Greedy. Wrong. I don't care, I've had it all. But I'll draw the line and someone making out I don't contribute. I'll give time to anyone that needs my help and never ask for anything in return. I bust my balls day in day out to try and give back and help people in the way I was helped when I was younger.

But message received. No more posts to my Youtube. I genuinely couldn't care less. They don't result in any clicks anyway. I do it because if it answers ONE person, then it's worth it.

Get off the cross Levi, we need the wood.

missmisstreater

WezV said:

The point is your post is a click bait style link with no actual info.  You have stated what you think the misinformation is, but only linked to the real info.

i have discussed my thoughts on fanned frets numerous times on this forum.  

fanned frets is a technique that can be used in an ergonomic way and can improve intonation... but only if it’s done right.  

Extreme fans can be very unergonomic and cause the hand to twist in uncomfortable ways.  Better fans can help keep the wrist straight in all playing positions... that’s ergonomics!

choosing the scale length difference, and centre of the fan is crucial in that ergonomic discussion.  As a builder of fanned fret guitars it has always been at the forefront of my mind.  

Your vid kinda covers scale length difference, but ignores positioning of the fan.  I think you have overlooked one of the biggest ergonomic decisions fanned fret builders make.

I welcome your thoughts and a discussion here.  Like I said, I agree with most of what you said in the vid, but the things you write off as bollox are still factors in the design of fanned fret instruments.

That's fair,

I could have written a whole bunch more, and I probably should have. It's just generally posts I make here (or take interest in) get very little interaction. I'm happy to see a thread pick up and then jump in and get more involved if it's something people are interested in.

I was talking toa  guy on reddit recently about subtle vs extreme fans, and I would love to get my hands on something that went from say 26" - 25.5" - though it's so minimal that I wonder if it would have any impact.

Having said that, my Vigiers are 25.6" and I feel that extra .1", so maybe it would work out great.

I like writing in drop D, so that extra tension on the bottom would appeal to me.

Having said that, I've talked to Mike extensively in the lead up to him buying this guitar, and I was really against him getting a 6 string, because I'm yet to play a fanned 6 that makes sense to me. Especially as Mike tunes to B. I said he'd be better off just getting a fanned 7. This guitar is like a 7 missing the top string, and I don't really get that.

WezV

Here is a pic i have posted a few times....


both these were build to test out ideas for a fanned fret acoustic I am yet to complete   The fans were specifically chosen  to give a different feel (ergonomics).  The scale lengths are actually fairly close

The thinline is 25-27 1/2" with a perp (fret which is perpendicular to the centre line)  near the 6th fret.  The white guitar is 25-27" with the perp at the 12th.

the white one is about as extreme a fan as I would go on a 6 string with 2" difference in scales and a 12th fret perp.  It's still okay for first position chords, but only just.  If I increased the difference in scales I would indeed move the perp towards the nut.   The thinline feels comfier (ergonomics) at the nut but is obviously quite extremely angled over the body - this actually aids access here.   


In the end, for the acoustic i decided the layout of the white one would be better.   This was a tonal decision, to keep the bridge more central on the top.   That's a factor you have not considered, but its understandable.

missmisstreater

And I'll add that I've just ordered a True Temperament + Evertune equipt guitar - so evidently fans are less appealing than using an evertune to solve my tension/pick attack tuning issues.

Jonathanthomas83

I agree, I have a 7 string multiscale and I see the sense in that, not sure I'd have use for a 6 string.

Keep posting here, man, it's a welcoming community and need to keep that going.

missmisstreater

WezV said:

The thinline is 25-27 1/2" with a perp (fret which is perpendicular to the centre line)  near the 6th fret.  The white guitar is 25-27" with the perp at the 12th.

the white one is about as extreme a fan as I would go on a 6 string with 2" difference in scales and a 12th fret perp.  It's still okay for first position chords, but only just.  If I increased the difference in scales I would indeed move the perp towards the nut.   The thinline feels comfier (ergonomics) at the nut but is obviously quite extremely angled over the body - this actually aids access here.   


In the end, for the acoustic i decided the layout of the white one would be better.   This was a tonal decision, to keep the bridge more central on the top.   That's a factor you have not considered, but its understandable.

I find that really interesting. I'd tried to find examples of fans where the straight fret (now I'll user perp :P ) was below the 12th, but couldn't find anything.

So it's fair to say that where that perp is will dictate the ergonomics of the rest of the neck, but it's a compromise no matter what? The lower it is, the more ridiculous the higher frets get... that bridge looks insane! Unless you make a seriously angled pickup you're going to end up with something tonally inconsistent right?

Jonathanthomas83

missmisstreater said:

And I'll add that I've just ordered a True Temperament + Evertune equipt guitar - so evidently fans are less appealing than using an evertune to solve my tension/pick attack tuning issues.

In your video you didn't mention what BKP set you've gone for on that guitar...I don't think you did anyway, but I'm intrigued? congrats on the custom order.

Roland

< Sigh of relief> There’s a useful debate here if we can avoid slinging insults.

Sporky

missmisstreater said:

No more posts to my Youtube. 

I am not picking a fight here, just some comments.

I did not bother clicking the video. I don't unless it's someone posting a track they've recorded. Or it has kitten content or similar.

I speak for no-one but myself, but I pay much more attention to stuff that is posted straight into the forum rather than linked.

My suspicion is that I'm far from the only person who responds better to direct engagement than to link dropping.

WezV

i still love and build normal 6 strings.  

7 strings push the compromise of a fixed scale length as far as it will go.  For me they highlight the compromise inherent in the parallel fretted guitar.  That compromise is still there on a 6 string.

missmisstreater

Jonathanthomas83 said:

missmisstreater said:

And I'll add that I've just ordered a True Temperament + Evertune equipt guitar - so evidently fans are less appealing than using an evertune to solve my tension/pick attack tuning issues.

In your video you didn't mention what BKP set you've gone for on that guitar...I don't think you did anyway, but I'm intrigued? congrats on the custom order.

I've gone for the Juggernauts purely because I have some blackhawks I can put in if I don't love them - but I've played them in GuitarGuitar and thought they were great.

Jonathanthomas83

Cool, enjoy.

WezV

missmisstreater said:

WezV said:

The thinline is 25-27 1/2" with a perp (fret which is perpendicular to the centre line)  near the 6th fret.  The white guitar is 25-27" with the perp at the 12th.

the white one is about as extreme a fan as I would go on a 6 string with 2" difference in scales and a 12th fret perp.  It's still okay for first position chords, but only just.  If I increased the difference in scales I would indeed move the perp towards the nut.   The thinline feels comfier (ergonomics) at the nut but is obviously quite extremely angled over the body - this actually aids access here.   


In the end, for the acoustic i decided the layout of the white one would be better.   This was a tonal decision, to keep the bridge more central on the top.   That's a factor you have not considered, but its understandable.

I find that really interesting. I'd tried to find examples of fans where the straight fret (now I'll user perp :P ) was below the 12th, but couldn't find anything.

So it's fair to say that where that perp is will dictate the ergonomics of the rest of the neck, but it's a compromise no matter what? The lower it is, the more ridiculous the higher frets get... that bridge looks insane! Unless you make a seriously angled pickup you're going to end up with something tonally inconsistent right?

Only as tonally inconsistent as an angled pickup on a strat.

its the perp and the scale length difference together that determine the ergonomic factors.

missmisstreater

WezV said:

i still love and build normal 6 strings.  

7 strings push the compromise of a fixed scale length as far as it will go.  For me they highlight the compromise inherent in the parallel fretted guitar.  That compromise is still there on a 6 string.

I honestly don't know how companies like Gibson or PRS can make 7 strings with a  straight face. I had a Vigier 7 (25.6") and there was nothing I could do with the low string. It was either too slack to hit hard, or the gauge was so heavy (66) that I ran into string inharmonicity problems and it sounded like shit.

So you get guys with 28" 7s... B sound great... but they feel like shit to solo on.

I respect that some people can make it work, but the idea of an 8 without a fan? That would never work for me.

Thankfully I'm all about the tele, and I acknowledge that it's shit before I pick it up, so nothing gets in the way.

WezV

Some people do drop C on a les Paul and really can make it work... for me it’s like playing on rubber bands

my first was a les paulish thing with 25-26” scales (5th fret perp) and that worked so much better

Jonathanthomas83

missmisstreater said:

I respect that some people can make it work, but the idea of an 8 without a fan? That would never work for me.

Haven't you got an 8 string parallel fret Mayones?

Modellista

This seems to be a good time to tell @missmisstreater I enjoy your posts and vids, man.  Particularly like the Bird Blues one, helped me brush up on my chord library.  Thanks, basically.  Please carry on.

Can't say the same for the guy who was winding you up.

missmisstreater

Jonathanthomas83 said:

missmisstreater said:

WezV said:

i still love and build normal 6 strings.  

7 strings push the compromise of a fixed scale length as far as it will go.  For me they highlight the compromise inherent in the parallel fretted guitar.  That compromise is still there on a 6 string.

I honestly don't know how companies like Gibson or PRS can make 7 strings with a  straight face. I had a Vigier 7 (25.6") and there was nothing I could do with the low string. It was either too slack to hit hard, or the gauge was so heavy (66) that I ran into string inharmonicity problems and it sounded like shit.

So you get guys with 28" 7s... B sound great... but they feel like shit to solo on.

I respect that some people can make it work, but the idea of an 8 without a fan? That would never work for me.

Thankfully I'm all about the tele, and I acknowledge that it's shit before I pick it up, so nothing gets in the way.

Haven't you got an 8 string parallel fret Mayones?

I do - but currently, the low string is unusable to my ears. The B is great, maybe even perfect, but the high strings feel like a different instrument.

Evertune have sent me a bridge and I'm having that put in to show how their system eliminates the thing that drives me crazy about string tension.

Fanning would have helped address this, but I picked this up for like £1000, so I wasn't going to complain.