What Fanned Frets Are REALLY For!

Clarky

Jack_ said:

Have them on my Stranberg, not sure about whether I prefer them, but I was surprised by how easy it was to adjust to them.

quick question...
what did you think about the other side of the Stranberg neck?
the sort of hexagonal thing on the back of the neck..
just curious..

WezV

@Clarky said:

WezV said:
fanned frets is a technique that can be used in an ergonomic way and can improve intonation... but only if it’s done right.  

Extreme fans can be very unergonomic and cause the hand to twist in uncomfortable ways.  Better fans can help keep the wrist straight in all playing positions... that’s ergonomics!

choosing the scale length difference, and centre of the fan is crucial in that ergonomic discussion.  As a builder of fanned fret guitars it has always been at the forefront of my mind.  

wow... this is really pretty interesting...
it never occurred to me that you'd choose the centre of the fan and the scale differences..
seriously I had no idea...
and answers my previous question...

if you look at Novax, Blackmachine, Orsmby(the early ones before the hypemachine) or Strandbergs most have the straight fret between the 12th  and nut, many fanned frets now seem to be pushing this towards the 12th but there are different approaches even within this forum.

I normally go between 3rd and 9th, but have been pushing that to the 12th recently.  My reason is often t get a better layout for a different design decision... I still think between the 3rd to 9th is most ergonomic for most styles.   I rarely go above a 2 1/2" difference  between the scales  over 6 strings.   If the 12th is the perp, I keep that to about 2" to prevent a severe angel on the nut and a compromise on first position chords.  Moving the perp towards the nut lets me stretch that bass string a bit longer and  keep the nut end comfortable.  I don't mind the increased angle at the bridge created by doing it this way.

@kempguitars offers something totally different to that in his half fan.   The perp is moved all the way down to the bridge and fans out from there.   This allows the use of standard hardware and gives all the tension benefits.  My assumption is this also limits the amount of difference between the scales you can get away with.  a 3" difference in scales would give a very angled nut.

To me it shows how customisable this approach is., but that's not easy for somebody speccing a custom build... best to play a few and see what works, which is easier now they are more common.

Once you are used to them its not really any more difficult than changing between different scale lengths...    The more people play, they more they seem to struggle at first. I think there is a point where people become totally dependant on muscle memory and it can trip them up - but it passes quickly and only happens the first time.   DON'T LOOK  DOWN

Jonathanthomas83

I find it really easy now, and it didnt take me long when I first had it either. From what I've learned, Ormsby/Kiesel/Mayones put the parallel fret at around the 7/9 (can't really remember which) which seems nice and even, but Ibanez have it at around 12 which makes things at the nut end a little more tricky to negotiate. My kiesel is a joy to play and if I had another 7 string, it'd have to be fanned.

Roland

Does slope depend on string tension, and which fret is perpendicular depend on which fret position you play at predominantly?

missmisstreater

Roland said:

Does slope depend on string tension, and which fret is perpendicular depend on which fret position you play at predominantly?

the slope will depend on the variance in scales you go for. So a 28" - 25" fan will be considerably more extreme than a 26" - 25"

Clarky

WezV said:

@Clarky said:

WezV said:
fanned frets is a technique that can be used in an ergonomic way and can improve intonation... but only if it’s done right.  

Extreme fans can be very unergonomic and cause the hand to twist in uncomfortable ways.  Better fans can help keep the wrist straight in all playing positions... that’s ergonomics!

choosing the scale length difference, and centre of the fan is crucial in that ergonomic discussion.  As a builder of fanned fret guitars it has always been at the forefront of my mind.  

wow... this is really pretty interesting...
it never occurred to me that you'd choose the centre of the fan and the scale differences..
seriously I had no idea...
and answers my previous question...

if you look at Novax, Blackmachine, Orsmby(the early ones before the hypemachine) or Strandbergs most have the straight fret between the 12th  and nut, many fanned frets now seem to be pushing this towards the 12th but there are different approaches even within this forum.

I normally go between 3rd and 9th, but have been pushing that to the 12th recently.  My reason is often t get a better layout for a different design decision... I still think between the 3rd to 9th is most ergonomic for most styles.   I rarely go above a 2 1/2" difference  between the scales  over 6 strings.   If the 12th is the perp, I keep that to about 2" to prevent a severe angel on the nut and a compromise on first position chords.  Moving the perp towards the nut lets me stretch that bass string a bit longer and  keep the nut end comfortable.  I don't mind the increased angle at the bridge created by doing it this way.

@kempguitars offers something totally different to that in his half fan.   The perp is moved all the way down to the bridge and fans out from there.   This allows the use of standard hardware and gives all the tension benefits.  My assumption is this also limits the amount of difference between the scales you can get away with.  a 3" difference in scales would give a very angled nut.

To me it shows how customisable this approach is., but that's not easy for somebody speccing a custom build... best to play a few and see what works, which is easier now they are more common.

Once you are used to them its not really any more difficult than changing between different scale lengths...    The more people play, they more they seem to struggle at first. I think there is a point where people become totally dependant on muscle memory and it can trip them up - but it passes quickly and only happens the first time.   DON'T LOOK  DOWN

what you're explaining makes so much sense
it just never occurred to me..
I know Doug [Black Machine pretty well] and recall him explaining to me the time and effort that went into developing his fan fret design... but it's only now that the penny has dropped with respect to the location of the perp and the size of the scale difference between the 1st and 6th [7th or 8th] strings...

I totally get the 'don't look down' thing...
that became quite clear to me within just a few minutes of playing the Strandberg..
I have to say that I'm finding the idea of a half fan very interesting..
I play in D standard, but really like the tension of Hybrid 9's tuned concert..
to recreate this in D standard I had to create my own set..
essentially a set of power slinky's [11's] with a 40 and 50 for the 5th and 6th strings respectively..
it's a trade off.. I sacrifice a little tone from the thicker wrapped strings to get the feel..
so a half fan could be a really nice solution to allow me to get the tension with slightly lower gauges..
that said.. the thing that is the deal breaker for me is the hard tail..
I need a Floyd Rose or similar.. it's such a huge part of my playing style that I do not want to live without one..

thegummy

The thing he says about "if you don't know something, just don't answer" is golden advice.

I'm sure I've been guilty before of answering when I think I know something without really making sure I do know but I do try my best not to.

I think if everyone at least tried to question their own expertise before answering, the internet would be a lot more useful place.

Of course, there are people with genuine expertise - several on this forum - and the fact they share that with everyone for free is just amazing and I'm so grateful each time!

missmisstreater

thegummy said:

Of course, there are people with genuine expertise - several on this forum - and the fact they share that with everyone for free is just amazing and I'm so grateful each time!

That's literally the best bit! You don't need to pretend to know the answer, because the guys that really know are happy to share! (as this thread demonstrates) 

WezV

Clarky said:

WezV said:

@Clarky said:

WezV said:
fanned frets is a technique that can be used in an ergonomic way and can improve intonation... but only if it’s done right.  

Extreme fans can be very unergonomic and cause the hand to twist in uncomfortable ways.  Better fans can help keep the wrist straight in all playing positions... that’s ergonomics!

choosing the scale length difference, and centre of the fan is crucial in that ergonomic discussion.  As a builder of fanned fret guitars it has always been at the forefront of my mind.  

wow... this is really pretty interesting...
it never occurred to me that you'd choose the centre of the fan and the scale differences..
seriously I had no idea...
and answers my previous question...

if you look at Novax, Blackmachine, Orsmby(the early ones before the hypemachine) or Strandbergs most have the straight fret between the 12th  and nut, many fanned frets now seem to be pushing this towards the 12th but there are different approaches even within this forum.

I normally go between 3rd and 9th, but have been pushing that to the 12th recently.  My reason is often t get a better layout for a different design decision... I still think between the 3rd to 9th is most ergonomic for most styles.   I rarely go above a 2 1/2" difference  between the scales  over 6 strings.   If the 12th is the perp, I keep that to about 2" to prevent a severe angel on the nut and a compromise on first position chords.  Moving the perp towards the nut lets me stretch that bass string a bit longer and  keep the nut end comfortable.  I don't mind the increased angle at the bridge created by doing it this way.

@kempguitars offers something totally different to that in his half fan.   The perp is moved all the way down to the bridge and fans out from there.   This allows the use of standard hardware and gives all the tension benefits.  My assumption is this also limits the amount of difference between the scales you can get away with.  a 3" difference in scales would give a very angled nut.

To me it shows how customisable this approach is., but that's not easy for somebody speccing a custom build... best to play a few and see what works, which is easier now they are more common.

Once you are used to them its not really any more difficult than changing between different scale lengths...    The more people play, they more they seem to struggle at first. I think there is a point where people become totally dependant on muscle memory and it can trip them up - but it passes quickly and only happens the first time.   DON'T LOOK  DOWN

what you're explaining makes so much sense
it just never occurred to me..
I know Doug [Black Machine pretty well] and recall him explaining to me the time and effort that went into developing his fan fret design... but it's only now that the penny has dropped with respect to the location of the perp and the size of the scale difference between the 1st and 6th [7th or 8th] strings...

I totally get the 'don't look down' thing...
that became quite clear to me within just a few minutes of playing the Strandberg..
I have to say that I'm finding the idea of a half fan very interesting..
I play in D standard, but really like the tension of Hybrid 9's tuned concert..
to recreate this in D standard I had to create my own set..
essentially a set of power slinky's [11's] with a 40 and 50 for the 5th and 6th strings respectively..
it's a trade off.. I sacrifice a little tone from the thicker wrapped strings to get the feel..
so a half fan could be a really nice solution to allow me to get the tension with slightly lower gauges..
that said.. the thing that is the deal breaker for me is the hard tail..
I need a Floyd Rose or similar.. it's such a huge part of my playing style that I do not want to live without one..

The half fan idea would work with a floyd, but obviously not the locking nut.

Fanned fret trems can be a bit odd as they still pivot perpendicular to the centre line... the bass strings drop more than the treble.  Not an issue on the Kahler though

Clarky

WezV said:

The half fan idea would work with a floyd, but obviously not the locking nut.

Fanned fret trems can be a bit odd as they still pivot perpendicular to the centre line... the bass strings drop more than the treble.  Not an issue on the Kahler though

now this is entering the realms of "really seriously interesting" to me..

so a bridge like the Wilkinson / Vigier type with locking tuners like Steinbergers could hit the spot then on a half fan..
I appreciate that the dive of the longer strings would be deeper.. but the strings don't all dive the same anyhow..
I just imagine the difference could be a little more accentuated..

WezV

It should be mostly fine in a half fan, on a normal fanned fret with trem the bass side obviously raises up more than the treble because the saddle is further back from the pivot point

WezV

Here is Ola’s view

http://guitarworks.thestrandbergs.com/2015/06/03/fanned-fret-tremolo-prototype/

Clarky

WezV said:

Here is Ola’s view

http://guitarworks.thestrandbergs.com/2015/06/03/fanned-fret-tremolo-prototype/

jeez I'm in no position to buy stuff right now...
but I'm getting an itch... lol..

Sporky

Could you use something like a Les Trem or JM style trem, with individual roller saddles?

WezV

Sporky said:

Could you use something like a Les Trem or JM style trem, with individual roller saddles?

No reason why not, the Kahler would be similar in that the bridge position is seperate to the trem action.... not many make vintage style fanned frets though, although my Firebird will be done soon

xKempGuitars

WezV said:

Clarky said:

WezV said:

@Clarky said:

WezV said:
fanned frets is a technique that can be used in an ergonomic way and can improve intonation... but only if it’s done right.  

Extreme fans can be very unergonomic and cause the hand to twist in uncomfortable ways.  Better fans can help keep the wrist straight in all playing positions... that’s ergonomics!

choosing the scale length difference, and centre of the fan is crucial in that ergonomic discussion.  As a builder of fanned fret guitars it has always been at the forefront of my mind.  

wow... this is really pretty interesting...
it never occurred to me that you'd choose the centre of the fan and the scale differences..
seriously I had no idea...
and answers my previous question...

if you look at Novax, Blackmachine, Orsmby(the early ones before the hypemachine) or Strandbergs most have the straight fret between the 12th  and nut, many fanned frets now seem to be pushing this towards the 12th but there are different approaches even within this forum.

I normally go between 3rd and 9th, but have been pushing that to the 12th recently.  My reason is often t get a better layout for a different design decision... I still think between the 3rd to 9th is most ergonomic for most styles.   I rarely go above a 2 1/2" difference  between the scales  over 6 strings.   If the 12th is the perp, I keep that to about 2" to prevent a severe angel on the nut and a compromise on first position chords.  Moving the perp towards the nut lets me stretch that bass string a bit longer and  keep the nut end comfortable.  I don't mind the increased angle at the bridge created by doing it this way.

@kempguitars offers something totally different to that in his half fan.   The perp is moved all the way down to the bridge and fans out from there.   This allows the use of standard hardware and gives all the tension benefits.  My assumption is this also limits the amount of difference between the scales you can get away with.  a 3" difference in scales would give a very angled nut.

To me it shows how customisable this approach is., but that's not easy for somebody speccing a custom build... best to play a few and see what works, which is easier now they are more common.

Once you are used to them its not really any more difficult than changing between different scale lengths...    The more people play, they more they seem to struggle at first. I think there is a point where people become totally dependant on muscle memory and it can trip them up - but it passes quickly and only happens the first time.   DON'T LOOK  DOWN

what you're explaining makes so much sense
it just never occurred to me..
I know Doug [Black Machine pretty well] and recall him explaining to me the time and effort that went into developing his fan fret design... but it's only now that the penny has dropped with respect to the location of the perp and the size of the scale difference between the 1st and 6th [7th or 8th] strings...

I totally get the 'don't look down' thing...
that became quite clear to me within just a few minutes of playing the Strandberg..
I have to say that I'm finding the idea of a half fan very interesting..
I play in D standard, but really like the tension of Hybrid 9's tuned concert..
to recreate this in D standard I had to create my own set..
essentially a set of power slinky's [11's] with a 40 and 50 for the 5th and 6th strings respectively..
it's a trade off.. I sacrifice a little tone from the thicker wrapped strings to get the feel..
so a half fan could be a really nice solution to allow me to get the tension with slightly lower gauges..
that said.. the thing that is the deal breaker for me is the hard tail..
I need a Floyd Rose or similar.. it's such a huge part of my playing style that I do not want to live without one..

The half fan idea would work with a floyd, but obviously not the locking nut.

Fanned fret trems can be a bit odd as they still pivot perpendicular to the centre line... the bass strings drop more than the treble.  Not an issue on the Kahler though

xKempGuitars

Sorry about that, my Android browser wouldn't let me comment after the quote or delete it and start again, so... 

The half fan idea would work with a floyd, but obviously not the locking nut.

Zero fret  

WezV

This is why I tagged you.  It’s not my approach but I could see it working for @Clarky ;

Clarky

WezV said:

This is why I tagged you.  It’s not my approach but I could see it working for @Clarky ;

thanks matey..

@KempGuitars so we'd be talking about a zero fret and locking tuners then yes?

xKempGuitars

WezV said:

This is why I tagged you.  It’s not my approach but I could see it working for @Clarky ;;

Clarky said:

WezV said:

This is why I tagged you.  It’s not my approach but I could see it working for @Clarky ;

thanks matey..

@KempGuitars so we'd be talking about a zero fret and locking tuners then yes?

Zero fret in front of the locking nut. Make sense