Are Harley Benton pointing the way to the real future of the guitar industry?

Three-ColourSunburst

Gibson about to go bankrupt after years of turning out instruments that often have poorer QC than many 'Chibsons'. Fender also having financial problems. Both offering more and more instruments at prices that are ludicrous given the cost of the materials and manufacturing costs involved, and both relying on milking the power of nostalgia and the brand name rather than doing anything truly innovative.

Compare the plight of Gibson to what is happening with the Harley Benton brand, who seem to be about to make a huge leap forward in terms of quality whilst still maintaining sensible prices. This video gives a really interesting look at how the brand is being developed and the realities of far-eastern manufacture. (With most of the big brands also using the same few factories that Harley Benton do.)

Whether you would be happy to play a Harley Benton or wouldn't be seen dead with a guitar without the 'mojo' that comes from having 'right' name on the headstock, I think anyone would have to admit they they really seem to know what they are doing and might well become a major brand in the future.

Modellista

I see your point, but surely the masters of the portfolio are Ibanez?  They have the benefit of a decent brand reputation behind them, have economies of scale, and a portfolio that stretches from a £149 Gio to the >£1k Japanese Prestige line.  Even in the same model, something like the Roadcore series (excellent guitars even at the cheapest end) starts at £200, but the same body shape can be had in solid rosewood or a Prestige model depending on wallet and fussiness.  Plus a decent roster of artists on board add kudos to the brand.  Easy to imagine Ibanez outlasting Gibson.  And I read somewhere that they don't even own their own factories.  Which would be a very sensible business move.

rossi

Quality guitars can be made a reasonable prices .My Chinese Joe Trohman tele is good case in point .While not that cheap when issued it has  great set up and build qulity .The neck, if you like that neck ,is to die for ,low action   ,perfect frets . edges rounded .i have played  four  and owned two and all were the same .Very impressive .If it  had Fender USA on it and I paid triple  I frankly wouldnt have cared a bit  quality wise except for the pots  as usual .If they can do this quality at that price then it makes higher prices a bit daft .

HarrySeven

modellista said:

I see your point, but surely the masters of the portfolio are Ibanez?  They have the benefit of a decent brand reputation behind them, have economies of scale, and a portfolio that stretches from a £149 Gio to the >£1k Japanese Prestige line.  Even in the same model, something like the Roadcore series (excellent guitars even at the cheapest end) starts at £200, but the same body shape can be had in solid rosewood or a Prestige model depending on wallet and fussiness.  Plus a decent roster of artists on board add kudos to the brand.  Easy to imagine Ibanez outlasting Gibson.  And I read somewhere that they don't even own their own factories.  Which would be a very sensible business move.

I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you re. the business angle, but (personally), I haven't seen an Ibanez in years that I'd spend money on. Generic, generic, generic.

stimpsonslostson

I think HB might be more comparable to Yamaha than Gibson- both guitar ranges are a component part of a larger company. Whereas Gibson/Fender probably live or die on the strength of their guitar sales. 

HB are gaining a reputation for good value guitars- they can be very good (I play one as my main guitar, albeit a highly modded one). Yamaha have achieved this reputation already- good guitars, excellent for the money, but lacking in "personality" or "mojo". 

I'd quite like to see someone do to Gibson what seems to have happened to Lamborghini- bought by someone (Audi) with the manufacturing technology but not the "kudos" now making excellent, reliable, well regarded and somehow retaining the "name". 

digitalscream

HarrySeven said:

modellista said:

I see your point, but surely the masters of the portfolio are Ibanez?  They have the benefit of a decent brand reputation behind them, have economies of scale, and a portfolio that stretches from a £149 Gio to the >£1k Japanese Prestige line.  Even in the same model, something like the Roadcore series (excellent guitars even at the cheapest end) starts at £200, but the same body shape can be had in solid rosewood or a Prestige model depending on wallet and fussiness.  Plus a decent roster of artists on board add kudos to the brand.  Easy to imagine Ibanez outlasting Gibson.  And I read somewhere that they don't even own their own factories.  Which would be a very sensible business move.

I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you re. the business angle, but (personally), I haven't seen an Ibanez in years that I'd spend money on. Generic, generic, generic.

Surely the same could be said of Fender and Gibson? I guess what I'm saying is that once a brand has reached the point where they're considered generic or ubiquitous, that's pretty much peak-brand-awareness; you hear a band playing a given genre, and you kind of expect the guitarists to be playing one of only a few brands.

HarrySeven

digitalscream said:

Surely the same could be said of Fender and Gibson?

True.

In a (maybe typically H7 Luddite) way, I do miss the days when model ranges were (very) limited to a few key models and options.

We now have vast contemporary range(s) of ultra-diverse, micro-differentiated (yet samey), Signature-model heavy, multi-price-point brands and sub-brands, all competing for smaller and smaller market shares.

It just bores me to death. Walking into any major dealer (PMT, guitar guitar, etc - or even just perusing manufacturer websites) switches me right off. Too much choice. Too many options.

digitalscream

HarrySeven said:

It just bores me to death. Walking into any major dealer (PMT, guitar guitar, etc - or even just perusing manufacturer websites) switches me right off. Too much choice. Too many options.

I'm with you there. I haven't been into a music shop with the intention of buying more than a pack of strings in years for exactly that reason. I'd rather save up a bit more and get somebody to build exactly what I want. Then again, I don't think I'm the target market for HB.

crunchman

HarrySeven said:

modellista said:

I see your point, but surely the masters of the portfolio are Ibanez?  They have the benefit of a decent brand reputation behind them, have economies of scale, and a portfolio that stretches from a £149 Gio to the >£1k Japanese Prestige line.  Even in the same model, something like the Roadcore series (excellent guitars even at the cheapest end) starts at £200, but the same body shape can be had in solid rosewood or a Prestige model depending on wallet and fussiness.  Plus a decent roster of artists on board add kudos to the brand.  Easy to imagine Ibanez outlasting Gibson.  And I read somewhere that they don't even own their own factories.  Which would be a very sensible business move.

I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you re. the business angle, but (personally), I haven't seen an Ibanez in years that I'd spend money on. Generic, generic, generic.

True on the guitars, but some of the basses are ok.  At the budget end of their range, I recently picked one of the short scale Talmans.  I did seriously look at the some of the mid price (£600ish) basses a few months back.  I have absolutely no desire to get an Ibanez guitar though.

Going back to the original point of the thread, if you look at the work that goes into the higher end Fenders and Gibsons, you could never build them to the same price as the Harley-Benton guitars.   For Gibson, a fairer comparison would be with something like Maybach or Eastman.  Their versions of a proper nitro finished Les Paul with a carved top are still well upwards of £1k.

There are corners cut on the Harley Benton range.  To some extent there are corners cut on everything below Custom Shop level guitars.  Having said that, there are more corners cut on a Harley Benton than on a Mexican Fender.  A better comparison might be the Rob Chapman range.    Their far Eastern range seems to be between the £400 to £1k price point.  If Harley Benton do go upmarket, it will be into that market.  Is a £1k Chapman as good as a £1.4k Fender American Pro?  People will have different opinions.  I know which one I'd prefer though - and it doesn't have an infinity symbol at the 12th fret.

HAL9000

HarrySeven said:

digitalscream said:

Surely the same could be said of Fender and Gibson?

True.

In a (maybe typically H7 Luddite) way, I do miss the days when model ranges were (very) limited to a few key models and options.

We now have vast contemporary range(s) of ultra-diverse, micro-differentiated (yet samey), Signature-model heavy, multi-price-point brands and sub-brands, all competing for smaller and smaller market shares.

It just bores me to death. Walking into any major dealer (PMT, guitar guitar, etc - or even just perusing manufacturer websites) switches me right off. Too much choice. Too many options.

Beat me to it. In the old days you simply bought a Strat or a Tele. Apart from colour choice there really weren’t too many options. I guess in a declining market, the likes of Gibson, Fender, etc need to get fewer players to own multiple guitars. I go to a weekly jam night where I’d guess most of us are in our 60s. Most of us don’t gig regularly but nonetheless own four or five guitars. Why? Because the manufacturers have somehow convinced us that that is what we ‘need’. TBH, I only actually need one guitar, perhaps two at most but have somehow accumulated five of the things (most of which are Telecasters). And I’m eyeing up more!

As regards the original question, I guess certain brands will always be desirable simply because they were there from the beginning (with all the kudos that brings). Harley Benton will never be that unless they can bring something original and iconic to the party, but it does demonstrate that a decent guitar doesn’t have to cost high-end Fender or Gibson prices. 

Bigsby

Three-ColourSunburst said:

Gibson...  Fender... ...and both relying on milking the power of nostalgia and the brand name rather than doing anything truly innovative.  

I think that last bit is a little unfair. Both brands seem to be caught in a very difficult place; their customers only want tradition, yet there's a limit to how many 'traditional' guitars anyone wants to buy. So they have to find endless subtle ways to reinvent the wheel each year, without getting too far from their history. I don't think they have a choice about this.

Some evidence of this for Fender: Look at the response to the Fender/Roland modelling Strat. It ended up being marketed by Roland instead of Fender, as Fender's consumers didn't seem to be interested in making such a radical departure from tradition. Or the 2014 American Deluxe Plus Strat with 'personality cards'. OK, if we put aside the awful name, the guitar offered the potential to rewire it's electrics in an instant by swapping out a card in the back. There was plenty of room to develop this, and integrate the idea with other models, but Fender quietly dropped it after about 18 months.

With Gibson, we probably don't have to look any further than the innovations of 2015! But Gibson do seem to want to be seen as innovators, and always have done, from the humbucker, through their relationship with Moog, right up to the present. Unfortunately, for a long time, their customers have only been interested in the same old traditional retro reissue of what they already have.

TBH, I feel a little sorry for them. Until I look at their prices... Of course, those prices represent the other side of the coin and the benefit they get from having such a strong brand.

It's different for brands that don't have a long history to live up to, or keep repeating. Reverend are a prime example, they can change a model, drop one, introduce a new one, and few of their customers get bent out of shape about it. Instead, they're open to checking out whatever is new.

adamm82

I wish they had chosen a different name.
Harley Benton? sounds like someone from a 90's beat em up arcade game.

crunchman

HAL9000 said:

Beat me to it. In the old days you simply bought a Strat or a Tele. Apart from colour choice there really weren’t too many options.

Even with the huge range that Fender have, as far as I know I still can't get the spec I want though unless I go Custom Shop.  I don't think there is a V necked, nitro finished, 7.25" board Tele in the range.  Even from the Custom Shop I'm not sure there is an off the shelf version of it, and I might have to put in a custom order  - especially if I decided I wanted it with a rosewood board.

HAL9000

crunchman said:

HAL9000 said:

Beat me to it. In the old days you simply bought a Strat or a Tele. Apart from colour choice there really weren’t too many options.

Even with the huge range that Fender have, as far as I know I still can't get the spec I want though unless I go Custom Shop.  I don't think there is a V necked, nitro finished, 7.25" board Tele in the range.  Even from the Custom Shop I'm not sure there is an off the shelf version of it, and I might have to put in a custom order  - especially if I decided I wanted it with a rosewood board.

I’m fairly convinced that some of the more glaring omissions in the range are simply there to encourage people to go Custom Shop.

Rocker

Harley Benton are in the marketplace but not in the shops. It is a step of blind faith to buy a guitar, any guitar, unseen or unplaced from anyone. Even from a website with the good reputation of Thomann.  If it needs a setup, the cost of this must be included in the buying price. So your €350 HB becomes a €425 instrument. If you bought it from a shop, it may well cost €600.  Now you are in Fender or other top name territory.


Price chosen is a random number, it is being used for the purpose of clarity and is not referring to a specific HB model.

digitalscream

Rocker said:

Harley Benton are in the marketplace but not in the shops. It is a step of blind faith to buy a guitar, any guitar, unseen or unplaced from anyone. Even from a website with the good reputation of Thomann.  If it needs a setup, the cost of this must be included in the buying price. So your €350 HB becomes a €425 instrument. If you bought it from a shop, it may well cost €600.  Now you are in Fender or other top name territory.

Not if you apply the same process to the Fender. That €600 Fender is actually a €675 Fender...

joeyowen

For me, a bang average consumer (I think).  Average salary, always want 1 more guitar than I own...

There is still a big appeal in having Gibson, or Fender on the head stock.  I'm not the kind of guy who needs designer clothes or anything, I didn't need to own a BMW or Audi. But for guitar it still matters.  However, most of that is down to the nostalgia, because I grew up with those makes on the posters or the TV.  

Problem is, I would not buy new from either company.  Prices are too high in comparison with what you are getting in my opinion.  There are big issues with quality in places, as we all know.  I want to play a guitar before I own it, and all shops within an hour of me (will remain nameless) are complete jackasses.  Noisy, unhelpful staff etc..etc...

Whereas using Facebook buying/selling, I've met some great people , sat and had a coffee for an hour and discussed all things musical.  And saved a lot of money.  It I don't like the guitar, there isn't much loss selling it again.  This means I can still have the guitars I want, but in a nicer, cheaper way.  The flipside is, it doesn't help either company at all.

CaptainBb

Just my experience: 

I own a fair few high end guitars from the likes of Fender, Gibson, PRS & Collings.

I recently bought an indonesian made Gretsch Streamliner archtop for the princely sum of 380 quid.  The craftsmanship of this instrument is flawless and up there with the very best makers (something Gibson can only dream of IMHO).

If Harley Benton are using the same factory, they're onto a winner.

Three-ColourSunburst

Rocker said:

Harley Benton are in the marketplace but not in the shops. It is a step of blind faith to buy a guitar, any guitar, unseen or unplaced from anyone.

That might be true for, say, a Gibson, but I would have no hesitation buying something like an Ibanez prestige unseen - as I did when I last bought a guitar. The quality is everything I expected and if it had not been right I could have returned it the next day, or even a week later, with no hassle.

Three-ColourSunburst

modellista said:

I see your point, but surely the masters of the portfolio are Ibanez? 

I am an Ibanez fan, but I think these new Harley Bentons might compare well to Ibanez's Premium line for a fraction of the cost.

To be honest, I think a lot of Ibanez's prices are getting too high. For example, I would be tempted by the new AZ2402 in the tri-fade finish, but not at 2000 Euros, and I would probably be even less inclined to pay 1200 Euros for the Indonesian-made premium version which is made from basswood doesn't even come with a case.

You are right about both Harley Benton and Ibanez outsourcing the manufacture of their guitars. Ibanez's prestige line is made by Fuji-gen in Japan.

Funkfingers

HarrySeven said:
I haven't seen an Ibanez in years that I'd spend money on.

How much of this attitude is a feature of one's age?

A Satriani/Vai obsessive acquaintance of mine - now in his mid Thirties - has great affection for the JS, JEM and Universe models. I appreciate the positive qualities of these designs but feel no love for them.

Being twenty years his senior, I look kindly upon the RS, RG, Blazer and some of the designs that appeared on the Ibanez product range wall posters of the late Seventies as the company made the transition away from being mere copyists.