Are Harley Benton pointing the way to the real future of the guitar industry?

fandango

crunchman said:

@Three-ColourSunburst ; I won't quote your whole post, and I am wary of this because of the other thread you were very vocal in, but you did leave out one important thing.  Based on what you have expressed in the past, I know you won't agree, but the wood does make a noticeable difference to tone.

Someone like Fender or Gibson will be a lot more choosy about what wood they use.  That doesn't mean you can't find a cheap guitar that will sound good, but there is a higher chance of it with a guitar where the wood has been selected more carefully.  There are still some Fender and Gibson guitars that are made from dead sounding wood, but the ratio of good to bad is likely to be a lot higher at the higher end of the market, where more care goes into getting good wood.

I suggest that aesthetics and build quality influences guitar choice before tone comes into the equation. (At any given price point - if price is an issue). A poorly made/finished guitar of the type HarrySeven regularly reminds us of isn't going to float our boats. We won't care what it sounds like or how it plays. We won't even plug it it in.

I'm thinking tone is rarely if ever the first factor in guitar buying. It's what looks good, then feels good, then what it sounds like. So it's likely the third factor for most. So when Harley Benton, or any manufacturer, makes a great looking well-made guitar at the right, they are a good chunk of the way there in securing a sale. That sale isn't necessarily to those who hold to brand tradition or loyalty, but it will matter to the next generation of guitarists in the untapped areas of the world not brought up on western guitar brands.

impmann

Wow... I've avoided this thread for a while due to the opinion dressed as fact about Variaxes and that they were "all in the bin" and realising that I'd only end up in a pointless row about that. Interesting to come back to it...

OK a few facts from someone who used to visit Far Eastern guitar factories for a living, and QC/Audit them on their processes.

1) Their processes - ie the work instructions that they work to - are WESTERN. Therefore if you think that something is slap-dash or crappy *BECAUSE* it is made in the Far East, then you are mistaken. The work instructions they work to are devised to ensure maximum through put at a particular price point per unit. Therefore some finishing stages or some 'care' stages may be omitted to save time - and time is money. I have visited places that produce guitars (and other parts) for companies at several different price points - some very cheap, some very expensive. Same workers, same machines, different work instructions. The drawings, designs, specs, and even the CNC programming in some cases, comes from the West - don't believe me... ask Fender about it. I used to have dealings with the factory that churned out 10,000s of Squier instruments - all of those processes were written, maintained and OWNED by FMIC.

2) Their wood stocks - Gibson, Fender, PRS etc do not have the monopoly on good wood. They buy their wood from trade suppliers, *AT A PRICE POINT*. Now, for PRS and high end Gibson, that could be very expensive due to a lack of flaws etc. Fender do tend to buy good quality stuff too - but less of the fancy stuff (although they did gazump Gibson a few years ago on their stocks, when Henry's mob were struggling to find enough cash down the back of the sofa to pay for it). There is no reason *AT ALL* why Cort, World, Yako, Fujigen or a whole host of other guys you've never heard of shouldn't buy quality woods - except, that they know its a false economy as 'nobody' would pay the uplift. Bear in mind that the likes of Gibson (Epiphone), Fender (Squier), PRS (SE) etc have their US head office dictate the price points that the far eastern factories work to, they are VERY unlikely to sanction high quality wood that may undercut and threaten their higher end brands. A lot of problems with mahogany stem from how scarce it now is - and some varieties of "mahogany"  aren't quite as pretty as the old stuff, but it still has a similar tonal stamp. A lot of poor stuff is badly dried too - too fast - but if you want a guitar that's sub £1000 retail that has a lot of mahogany in it, you have to accept that it will have been made to a price... and part of that involves wood stock. But don't assume that its because it isn't available to the Far Eastern factories. Oh and equally, don't believe that its any better just because it has a Made in the USA stamp, either... that is marketing BS.

3) There is NO REASON WHATSOEVER why a Far Eastern factory could not turn out a guitar of as high quality - if not higher - than anything from any of the Custom Shops or PRS. Some of the luthiers over there are incredibly skilled guys (make Western guys look lame) and I've seen some guitars made by them that are *jaw dropping*. However, you've never heard to these guys... so you won't pay the money to buy them. I played a guitar once that had been custom made as a one off for a local player - it could have been sold (wholesale) at around £550, and it was better than 99% of Gibson CS and R-series guitars I've ever seen. However, because of the area it was made, it gets labelled with the "Chibson" label and described as firewood by most - oh and for the record, no it didn't have a fake logo, those mainly are wanted by WESTERN buyers...

4) Harley Benton branded instruments - I'm fairly sure I know the factory these are made in. I've not seen them being made so can't comment for sure. However, if it is the same place that factory is capable of some superb work. And so far, I've played a few HBs... and all have been very good for the money. Often they are let down by wood stock (see comments above about being made to a price) and machine made pickups that are a bit... characterless. 

Don't believe all you read about Far Eastern stuff. Would I play a guitar branded Harley Benton - yes, if it sounded good and played nice. Would I buy it if it were expensive? Not blind... I'd want to play it first and that is where this falls down. Thomann are a superb organisation, based on the Mail Order philosophy. I dig that - but there are some things you need to try. I know what a Gibson Les Paul or a Fender Strat should play and sound like - plus I know what the quality level should be at a given price point. If I order one, and it falls short... it goes back. Simple but a lot of hassle. The chances are though that it will live up to the expectation. However, buying an expensive HB is going to be a lot more of a gamble as I don't know what to expect - and so I probably wouldn't... not without trying one in a shop... and that ain't going to happen.

mikeyrob73

@impmann great post from someone in the know 

off topic 

Never Ever Bloody Anything Ever. Mr Jolly Lives Next Door? 

NelsonP

Brilliant post @impmann. Wis awarded.

How do you rate the Chinese Gibson / Epiphone factories?

JerkMoans

mikeyrob73 said:

@impmann great post from someone in the know 

off topic 

Never Ever Bloody Anything Ever. Mr Jolly Lives Next Door? 

That’s the one, Nicky  

impmann

mikeyrob73 said:

@impmann great post from someone in the know 

off topic 

Never Ever Bloody Anything Ever. Mr Jolly Lives Next Door? 

I've lived my life by it. Who dares Gins.

NelsonP said:

Brilliant post @impmann. Wis awarded.

How do you rate the Chinese Gibson / Epiphone factories?

I've played some amazing Chinese Epiphones - albeit their pickups and electronics tend to be a little below par. With these replaced and set up well, these are fabulous instruments.

mikeyrob73

impmann said:

mikeyrob73 said:

@impmann great post from someone in the know 

off topic 

Never Ever Bloody Anything Ever. Mr Jolly Lives Next Door? 

I've lived my life by it. Who dares Gins.

NelsonP said:

Brilliant post @impmann. Wis awarded.

How do you rate the Chinese Gibson / Epiphone factories?

I've played some amazing Chinese Epiphones - albeit their pickups and electronics tend to be a little below par. With these replaced and set up well, these are fabulous instruments.

What's Mr Jolly got that we haven't got?

impmann

mikeyrob73 said:

impmann said:

mikeyrob73 said:

@impmann great post from someone in the know 

off topic 

Never Ever Bloody Anything Ever. Mr Jolly Lives Next Door? 

I've lived my life by it. Who dares Gins.

NelsonP said:

Brilliant post @impmann. Wis awarded.

How do you rate the Chinese Gibson / Epiphone factories?

I've played some amazing Chinese Epiphones - albeit their pickups and electronics tend to be a little below par. With these replaced and set up well, these are fabulous instruments.

What's Mr Jolly got that we haven't got?

Our bloody Fairy Liquid

mikeyrob73

was once sat at a party like 20 years ago, where someone across the room, at 4 am, said " lets play a game" to which i replied "not fatties game" 

we are still friends now, bit of a cult classic @impmann ;

impmann

mikeyrob73 said:

was once sat at a party like 20 years ago, where someone across the room, at 4 am, said " lets play a game" to which i replied "not fatties game" 

we are still friends now, bit of a cult classic @impmann ;;

If you're a fan you (and I) missed this...

https://www.facebook.com/events/1792594304093464/

Three-ColourSunburst

impmann said:

Gibson, Fender, PRS etc do not have the monopoly on good wood. They buy their wood from trade suppliers, *AT A PRICE POINT*. Now, for PRS and high end Gibson, that could be very expensive due to a lack of flaws etc... A lot of problems with mahogany stem from how scarce it now is - and some varieties of "mahogany"  aren't quite as pretty as the old stuff, but it still has a similar tonal stamp. A lot of poor stuff is badly dried too - too fast - but if you want a guitar that's sub £1000 retail that has a lot of mahogany in it, you have to accept that it will have been made to a price... and part of that involves wood stock.

Great post, but could you clarify what you mean by 'good' wood? Sidestepping the 'tone wood' thing, do you basically mean wood that looks nicer with fewer flaws, as you suggest above? If so I would agree that the upper-tier manufacturers are  likely to be much more picky whilst a cheaper manufacturer would probably use just use it and fill the flaws. However, the cosmetic appearance of a piece of wood need not affect its function at all, so to my mind is pretty much an irrelevance.

Same with the environmentally friendly, cost-cutting practice of cutting up wood into smaller pieces which are then glued back together to make body blanks, something that makes it easy to create nice looking bodies with no structural defects even though timber, by its very nature, is often full of flaws. Surely it doesn't really matter if a body is made from one, two or six pieces, other than the kudos that comes from having a single, select piece of timber? (Which is why even Gibson make their body blanks from multiple pieces glued together.)

Another example might be the flame in a maple top. Even if a maple top affected the sound of the guitar, surely the degree of 'flame' is just of cosmetic importance and irrelevant to the playability and sound of the instrument? Consequently, whilst a top-tier manufacturer might choose to use an expensive top made from a solid piece of flame maple, and a cheaper one plain maple on its own or with a flame veneer, the only real advantage is simply knowing your guitar has a solid piece of flame maple.

Isn't it the case that making body blanks from multiple pieces, using veneers and so on are the main cost-cutting processes used by budget manufacturers, not that top-tier manufacturers are the only ones to make their guitars from 'real mahogany', with the cheaper brands necessarily using 'pulp' with the consistency of the inside of a smartie?

Also, with regards drying wood 'too fast'. Do you mean using vacuum drying? If so how would this be different for a cheaper manufacturer and the likes of Gibson, who also appear to vaccum dry their timber?

Thanks!

impmann

I think you've answered your own questions there... and I'm not getting into yet another discussion with you about the relative merits/cod science behind what makes one guitar sound better/different/the same compared to another.

There are many ways of drying timber. And there are many timeframes used.  But I'm not a timber drying expert... my comment is based on hearing that from people who know (Luthiers, CEOs of guitar manufacturing facilities etc), its more a reflection on what is available vs what used to be available.

p90fool

Three-ColourSunburst said:

 Even if a maple top affected the sound of the guitar 

You accidentally made some valid points in your post, but this renders any discussion with you pointless. 

Three-ColourSunburst

impmann said:

I know what a Gibson Les Paul or a Fender Strat should play and sound like - plus I know what the quality level should be at a given price point. If I order one, and it falls short... it goes back. Simple but a lot of hassle. The chances are though that it will live up to the expectation. However, buying an expensive HB is going to be a lot more of a gamble as I don't know what to expect - and so I probably wouldn't... not without trying one in a shop... and that ain't going to happen.

If you would buy a Gibson unseen (and many say never buy a Gibson that you haven't played), sending it back if it wasn't up to par, why wouldn't you do the same with a Harley Benton? I understand that Thomann are generally very good with returns.

impmann

Three-ColourSunburst said:

impmann said:

I know what a Gibson Les Paul or a Fender Strat should play and sound like - plus I know what the quality level should be at a given price point. If I order one, and it falls short... it goes back. Simple but a lot of hassle. The chances are though that it will live up to the expectation. However, buying an expensive HB is going to be a lot more of a gamble as I don't know what to expect - and so I probably wouldn't... not without trying one in a shop... and that ain't going to happen.

If you would buy a Gibson unseen (and many say never buy a Gibson that you haven't played), sending it back if it wasn't up to par, why wouldn't you do the same with a Harley Benton? I understand that Thomann are generally very good with returns.

I answered that question above... but for the sake of clarity...

"I know what a Gibson Les Paul or a Fender Strat should play and sound like - plus I know what the quality level should be at a given price point. If I order one, and it falls short... it goes back. Simple but a lot of hassle. The chances are though that it will live up to the expectation. However, buying an expensive HB is going to be a lot more of a gamble as I don't know what to expect - and so I probably wouldn't... not without trying one in a shop... and that ain't going to happen."

ICBM

It’s probably worth mentioning that one of the most highly-renowned builders of ultra-accurate Gibson replicas in the world comes from the famous traditional guitar-making country of...
















Israel.

carlos

impmann said:

However, buying an expensive HB is going to be a lot more of a gamble as I don't know what to expect - and so I probably wouldn't... not without trying one in a shop... and that ain't going to happen.

I think you're fine as there are no expensive HBs. Just checked and their most expensive is a double necked SG copy that comes in at a whopping £430. 

Three-ColourSunburst

p90fool said:

Three-ColourSunburst said:

 Even if a maple top affected the sound of the guitar 

You accidentally made some valid points in your post, but this renders any discussion with you pointless. 

Sorry, I don't understand. I used the word 'if' to leave open the possibility that using a maple top might affect the sound, then moved on to my point about the flame only been of cosmetic importance.

Three-ColourSunburst

impmann said:

I think you've answered your own questions there... and I'm not getting into yet another discussion with you about the relative merits/cod science behind what makes one guitar sound better/different/the same compared to another.

But I side-stepped the whole 'tonewood' thing and focused on ways manufacturers might cut materiel costs whilst still using solid mahogany for their body blanks.

Anyhow, thanks for confirming what I said regarding cost-cutting methods.

Three-ColourSunburst

impmann said:

I'm not a timber drying expert... my comment is based on hearing that from people who know (Luthiers, CEOs of guitar manufacturing facilities etc), its more a reflection on what is available vs what used to be available.

Something that would affect all manufacturers then.