Stays in tune?

ICBM

I think most of the hardtail guitars I’ve used have done, and my old Fender Jaguar did... and my PRSs. But I do use fairly heavy strings and not much bending or vibrato really.

I’ve never gigged with a double-locking guitar but from set-up work I would say they’re the most stable, assuming decent quality - cheap ones can have friction at the pivots.

Phil_aka_Pip

I'm surprised that so many quote Gibsons as examples of tuning instability. I never had such trouble. Whereas with a Strat ...

I'm sure a certain Mr J Hendrix also knew a thing or two about Strats and tuning instability.

guitarfishbay

ICBM said:

I think most of the hardtail guitars I’ve used have done, and my old Fender Jaguar did... and my PRSs. But I do use fairly heavy strings and not much bending or vibrato really.

I’ve never gigged with a double-locking guitar but from set-up work I would say they’re the most stable, assuming decent quality - cheap ones can have friction at the pivots.

They are very stable.

I’d be interested to compare against evertune actually, I’ve not owned a double locking trem for a while because I don’t use a trem.

Interestingly one of the guys from Slipknot has a hardtail double locking bridge on his signature guitar so it stays in (it’s pretty much a Floyd on fixed bridge studs with no trem cavity/springs).



A friend bought an evertune guitar recently and they found that after 2 weeks of use they had to tweak a single string, so you could say their guitar is Tuned Now By Default

I check my evertune guitars on days when I’m recording but otherwise I just pick it up and play. Even then it’s usually multiple days before there’s a hair of movement against a tuner. To actually hear it go out takes weeks.

ICBM

guitarfishbay said:

I’d be interested to compare against evertune actually, I’ve not owned a double locking trem for a while because I don’t use a trem.

It is interesting to compare the two approaches. A Floyd works by simply locking the strings at both ends so no movement is possible, whereas the Evertune works by compensating for any movement.

I'll admit to being initially sceptical about the physics of the Evertune, but there's absolutely no doubt it works.

Rocker

stickyfiddle said:

A lot of people complain about Gibsons (in particularly) going out of tune because a lot of guitarists have no idea how to restring a guitar, or how to do their own setups. 

You are on the ball about proper restringing a guitar but most home guitarists have not the need, or the interest, in learning how to setup a guitar. Knowing that a guitar can be setup to play better is enough, take the instrument to a guitar tech and pay his fee for doing it for you.  You don't mess around with your car so the same applies to your guitar.

rossi

I bought a Squier Affinty strat a few months ago for 40 quid .I gave it  a good set up  trem wise and a modest fret  level and was surprised how well it stays in tune..

NickL

Rocker said:

stickyfiddle said:

A lot of people complain about Gibsons (in particularly) going out of tune because a lot of guitarists have no idea how to restring a guitar, or how to do their own setups. 

You are on the ball about proper restringing a guitar but most home guitarists have not the need, or the interest, in learning how to setup a guitar. Knowing that a guitar can be setup to play better is enough, take the instrument to a guitar tech and pay his fee for doing it for you.  You don't mess around with your car so the same applies to your guitar.

You wouldn't take your car to a garage to get the driver's seat and mirrors adjusted. Simple guitar setup adjustments to personal preferences (e.g. string height on a Strat or Tele bridge) are not really that different. If they were only to be attempted by "authorised service personnel" Fender wouldn't give you the instructions and the tools.

robgilmo

Yeah my Squier standard Tele stays in tune, I can play it all night and pick it up a week later and its still right. I find removing the strings altogether and playing without them helps.

robgilmo

Saying that my Epi LP was the same, my guitars sit on stands in a room with underfloor heating so the temps are pretty consistant.

guitarfishbay

NickL said:

Rocker said:

You are on the ball about proper restringing a guitar but most home guitarists have not the need, or the interest, in learning how to setup a guitar. Knowing that a guitar can be setup to play better is enough, take the instrument to a guitar tech and pay his fee for doing it for you.  You don't mess around with your car so the same applies to your guitar.

You wouldn't take your car to a garage to get the driver's seat and mirrors adjusted. Simple guitar setup adjustments to personal preferences (e.g. string height on a Strat or Tele bridge) are not really that different. If they were only to be attempted by "authorised service personnel" Fender wouldn't give you the instructions and the tools.

I’d pay them extra to not adjust my seat, I can never get it back to where it was after an MOT/service.

thegummy

What are the steps in stringing a guitar that most people are missing out and causing their Gibsons to go out of tune?

I find it hard to believe Tim Pierce in particular is just doing that wrong. He has his own studio with all sorts of technical tricks to get the exact tone necessary for the hundreds of varied major label records he plays on.

It just seems so implausible that he would be making a hash of stringing his guitars, if he even does it himself and doesn't have a tech to manage his large guitar arsenal.

guitarfishbay

There’s a lot finer tolerance in a recording situation than in a live situation. Especially with modern recordings, the tuning aesthetic is generally very tight these days, though not always (depends on genre).

Someone with that much experience will have a very well developed ear for pitch and will probably notice something sounding a little off before most people. 

thegummy

guitarfishbay said:

There’s a lot finer tolerance in a recording situation than in a live situation. Especially with modern recordings, the tuning aesthetic is generally very tight these days, though not always (depends on genre).

Someone with that much experience will have a very well developed ear for pitch and will probably notice something sounding a little off before most people. 

See this is exactly what I think could be the case - people whose opinion differs on les Paul's staying in tune just have differing ideas on what in tune is.

For me, I'd say that for at least a whole song it should measurably stay in tune after large g string bends.

Headphones

Just to add some interest, I spent an afternoon in a shop recently, hunting for a new shiny toy.  I played a wide range of different instruments  - essentially factory fresh - thus removing the "how you string" issue (at least it should!).

I had the benefit of a Boss tuner between guitars and amp, and tuned carefully with each instrument swap.  My experience was that pretty much everything stayed in tune, Fender, Ibanez, MM, PRS, until... I picked up an LP.

Each of the ones that I tried took a while to tune up and drifted noticably over the first few minutes.  Really obvious on low position chords, less so further up the neck (some were very definately not new strings!).  Strangely, it was also clear that the intonation on these (I tried four or five different LPs) was pretty poor too, all very noticably sharp at the octave.  I tried a Firebird and a few SGs as well, all save one with the same symptoms.  I took that one home.  It still required a tweak on intonation, but nothing like the others and it stays in tune.  Not as well as my trem equipped guitars (typically an hour or so between tunings  - two strats and a PRS), but nothing that feels wrong.

My conclusion is that there's something in the Gibson design and build that just isn't as well considered as the others for tuning stability.

Some of this is definately build quality (I could list what I noticed, but it would be a long post...), some set up, but there's clearly something in the design here too, the break angle, splay and nut fit is a big part, but I'm not sure it's all, the dissimilar materials may be a big part too as mentioned before.

ICBM

thegummy said:

What are the steps in stringing a guitar that most people are missing out and causing their Gibsons to go out of tune?

Locking them to the tuner post with the absolute minimum number of wraps - typically well under one complete turn if you do it right; and stretching the string *as* you tighten it onto the post.

Typical mistakes are winding too many turns onto the post - even the 'one wind over, one under' method is too many - and not tightly locking the string by trapping the loose end; winding the string round the post *then* poking the loose end through which twists the string; not stretching the string properly - bear in mind that steel strings in fact do not 'stretch' like nylon ones, what you're actually doing is just forming the string tightly to the post and the bridge saddle... this is why it needs to be done as you're tuning up to pitch. (Although doing it afterwards as well does no harm.)

Some of these mistakes are actually in 'how to string your guitar properly' videos on Youtube, so it isn't surprising people get it wrong.

The reason I'm sure the method I use is right is because I have set up literally thousands of guitars, and I've tried several methods including the 'one over, one under' method over the years - nothing works as well as the 'half back turn and pull up under' method, other than locking tuners.

On the other hand B.B. King used to wind the whole length of the string onto the post so there was a huge coil of string on it! And yet he seemed to manage OK, on a Gibson...

thegummy

My LP has locking tuners so that rules out the post wraps - I am stretching the strings too but maybe not "properly", one can never be sure of one's own technique.

Admittedly I've only had it for a couple of months so haven't spent time addressing the tuning issue on the G string; just assumed that since the majority of people report the problem (including Pierce whom I personally trust as reliable) and the angle to the peg is very tight, that it was just a downside of them.

I do trust ICBM as reliable also so certainly don't doubt that he is able to set up Gibsons to stay in tune.

It's possibly just the case that Gibsons are very sensitive to tuning issues and require a lot of effort to set up to play in tune whereas other guitars play in tune with a lot less fuss.

P.S. I didn't actually get round to installing my "String Butler" before deciding to sell the Gibson, maybe this would make them as easy to set up for tuning stability as other guitars?

guitarfishbay

Yeah my Les Paul has locking tuners too. The most helpful thing I’ve found is some kind of lithium grease/nut lube, assuming the nut is cut properly to begin with

ICBM

I have also noticed that Gibsons with overly high bridges tend not to stay in tune as well as with lower bridges, even if the tailpiece is raised or top-wrapped to reduce the break angle - I think it must be due to the bridge flexing the height posts and not returning to exactly the same position every time. Since the bridge height is largely determined by the neck angle and thus can't be altered, its the first thing I would check on any Gibson I was interested in buying.

Headphones

That connects a few dots for me.  The SG I came home with has almost no thread showing on the treble side of the bridge and only a couple on the bass side - and I can see how tiny the shaft of the thumbscrew really is.  A bit of height there and ICBM's point would really start to work (mine appears comparitably stable).

Even though this one's quite low the strings foul the back of the bridge on the way to the stop bar.

Have they never had an engineer at Gibbo?  Or even  a decent set up guy? 

p90fool

thegummy said:

See this is exactly what I think could be the case - people whose opinion differs on les Paul's staying in tune just have differing ideas on what in tune is.

So those of us who THINK our Gibsons are just as rock solid as our Telecasters are just not talented enough to notice that we're wrong?

Or it could just be that some people (especially musicians) have zero mechanical sympathy and will never put strings on with any real understanding of what works and why, and that hundred-year-old headstock designs are far more likely to highlight their ineptitude.

My Les Paul stays in tune, by which I mean during an hour long set of jumping around in a sweaty pub and beating it hard enough to knock paint off it I may have to check tuning once or twice. 

My pitch sensitivity is extremely acute, and playing in a twin guitar band often with full chords tuning stability absolutely matters to me ahead of any other guitar feature.