Some comments from a vintage guitar dealer...

p90fool

bodhi said:

jumping@shadows said:

[...] the story is completely illogical, and again was not offered at any point by the last two custodians. 

The description of the guitar on the ATB site says:  "According to one of the previous owners...".

So do we know how many previous owners there were?

Do we know if the last two previous owners stated it as fact that the serial number was deliberately defaced, and what evidence they had to support that statement?

Did those two previous owners suspect that the guitar had been stolen at one time?  And they still bought and sold it on?  I.e. is anything they may or may not have said trustworthy?  They may well have started suggesting otherwise after ATB acquired the guitar, or had trouble selling it so told one version before the sale and another afterwards for some reason.

Just wondering - one thing I've learned is that there are always multiple sides to any story.

There ARE multiple sides to any story, but why on earth would any dealer who is concerned about his reputation sell guitars with defaced serial numbers? 

We know he didn't steal it and we know it wasn't stolen recently, but c'mon, why is he even contemplating touching that stuff with a barge pole? 

meltedbuzzbox

come on fellas. Put the keyboards/phones down and go outside and enjoy the sunshine. 
The usual debates wont go anywhere in the interim

Hattigol

Welcome. I follow you on Facebook and am always impressed and amazed (usually to the point of saying 'you bastard') when you post pictures of yet another fabulous guitar. Really admire your sourcing.

Hope to visit you one day - hope the new premises are working out well. 

Cheers, Stephen

bodhi

p90fool said:

We know he didn't steal it and we know it wasn't stolen recently, but c'mon, why is he even contemplating touching that stuff with a barge pole? 

We're effectively seeing two versions of the story behind what happened to the guitar's serial number - all hearsay with no evidence.  With people involved who, apparently, suspected that the guitar was stolen but still happily bought and sold it.  And others not quite directly involved but who appear willing to associate with those who were.  That's quite messy.

I suspect that no version of the story will ever be proved or disproved with any actual facts, and people will believe what they choose to believe because it suits their own agenda one way or another.

ronnyb

If i walked into a guitar shop with £21k in my pocket intending to spend it on a vintage guitar and was told that there was no serial number because it had been gouged out due to the fact there was a sticker over it, i'd be outta there faster than Usain Bolt.

ICBM

bodhi said:

We're effectively seeing two versions of the story behind what happened to the guitar's serial number - all hearsay with no evidence.  With people involved who, apparently, suspected that the guitar was stolen but still happily bought and sold it.  And others not quite directly involved but who appear willing to associate with those who were.  That's quite messy.

I suspect that no version of the story will ever be proved or disproved with any actual facts, and people will believe what they choose to believe because it suits their own agenda one way or another.

In my opinion it's quite clear that the guitar was stolen and the number defaced, decades ago probably, before the - itself old, from the colours and material - shop sticker was put on to cover it. It's very unlikely a shop would stick something over the serial number otherwise.

Whether that matters to a buyer now is an open question. The history has gone - we don't know if the original owner is even still alive, whether the guitar was recovered and then sold legitimately, whether it was insured and is now the property of the insurance company, or what.

But repeating an obviously nonsensical story about it doesn't do the seller's credibility any favours.

I have no horse in this race by the way, or any other concerning vintage guitars really. I've owned about a couple of dozen, worked on dozens or into the low hundreds more, and handled probably a few hundred others - but I'm no longer really interested other than out of curiosity and the challenge of a bit of detective work. (Numbers all depending on how you define a vintage guitar! This includes some that weren't considered vintage at the time, but are now.)

ATB_Guitars

Morning Gents...

Well it is always interesting to wake up to the previous days debates and deliberations!

OK, here is everything I know about that 1953 Goldtop I recently sold:

I first saw that guitar at the Arlington Guitar Show in Texas about 7 years ago. I cannot remember the name of the dealer who was selling it, but if anyone has ever been to Arlington, he always sets up in the big room, near the middle at the back and sells tons and tons of vintage pedals with just a few guitars. He claimed to me he had this guitar as his personal guitar for many years and it was from talking to him I got the story about how the serial number looked like it does. When I saw it in Arlington it still had most of the large red and yellow store sticker covering the serial number and areas around it.

I have no idea how it got to Holland. I did not end up buying it at Arlington as I thought the asking price was a little steep at the time.

7 years later I see this same guitar for sale by another dealer in Holland albeit with most of the store sticker now removed. I bought it at that show and during the transaction the dealer pointed out to me the serial number issue but did not offer any explanation to me as to why it was like this.

The first I heard of any other possible explanation was when I read the comments on here left by Yoshi. Maybe there is another guitar out there with the same issue and the same red yellow store sticker? Possible.. but it does not seem likely. Unfortunately my iPhone photos only go back to 2014.

Some other points for you -

Is it stolen? Is there evidence of this or is this conjecture? If it was stolen and proven to be and I was made aware of this then I would have stated it but I wasn't and so far as I can tell it still is not a proven fact now. 

Items with defaced serial numbers do get sold and yes you can expect a discount for such items. Even though this one had a sticker price of 21k it was actually sold for a negotiated sum -15% below market value due to this very issue which I thought was a decent deal. I have sold six 50's Goldtops this year alone so I know what the market value of these are.

As I indicated in my initial offering to this forum, I like other dealers should be, are 100% accountable for what I sell. I have had the same Limited Company since 1999 and if anyone has an issue with anything I sell the buck will stop at me, although I do recommend contacting me directly first rather than posting on forums issues I may not be aware of as I do not necessarily have the time to read every single post on every forum out there

If this guitar does turn up on a stolen register then I will be the one having to take the hit on the financial side. I have had nothing but positive comments from it's proud new owner who managed to get a brilliant guitar at some saving from other wrap tails I have sold.

Make of this what you will... I am off to enjoy the rest of the weekend then I have a long flight to take so may not be able to reply to any other comments for a little while. Enjoy the sunshine!

ICBM

ATB_Guitars said:

Is it stolen? Is there evidence of this or is this conjecture?

You can't be serious. What other reason is there for defacing a serial number?

That *is* the evidence of it.

Sorry, but if you're going to be one of the honest dealers who does not obfuscate or stretch the truth, you need to just come clean about it. It was stolen. You don't know when or where, other than it was clearly a long time ago. That's all that needs to be said.

Wazmeister

I don’t know Mike, ATB, that goldtop or much else really...

But from the first to last post, there is something that doesnt quite sit right with me personally. And for that reason, fellow Dragons, Im out...

YMMV of course.

Strangefan

Oooooh look that that a decent response  to the pitchfork gang, uks biggest guitar forum.... Uks biggest community of annoyed  bored middle aged men with Internet access  more like , 

jf122

ATB_Guitars said:

Is it stolen? Is there evidence of this or is this conjecture? 

Yes there is evidence: a scratched out serial number. Does that prove the guitar was stolen? No. But it is strong evidence nevertheless, given that there is no logical reason for doing that to a guitar other than to hide evidence.

(To the forum police: I am outside in the sun by the way. They have these amazing inventions now called smartphones).

prlgmnr

First couple of sunny days for about two years and the "why don't you get out in the sun instead of getting annoyed and posting on the forum" comments* are out quicker than the string vests and beer guts.

*Posted to the very same forum, in a tone suggesting annoyance, of course.

Philly_Q

I don't like the sun.  Quite happy to be sitting here indoors reading this shite.

Neil

ICBM said:

ATB_Guitars said:

Is it stolen? Is there evidence of this or is this conjecture?

You can't be serious. What other reason is there for defacing a serial number?

That *is* the evidence of it.

Sorry, but if you're going to be one of the honest dealers who does not obfuscate or stretch the truth, you need to just come clean about it. It was stolen. You don't know when or where, other than it was clearly a long time ago. That's all that needs to be said.

I know most of us are in the UK but in all the states I know in the US it is illegal to sell or even own an item that has had the serial number defaced or removed, so would be very difficult to sell there.

Possibly why it found its way to Europe?

BloodEagle

Strangefan said:

Oooooh look that that a decent response  to the pitchfork gang, uks biggest guitar forum.... Uks biggest community of annoyed  bored middle aged men with Internet access  more like , 

Boom - nail on the head

WezV

Neil said:

ICBM said:

ATB_Guitars said:

Is it stolen? Is there evidence of this or is this conjecture?

You can't be serious. What other reason is there for defacing a serial number?

That *is* the evidence of it.

Sorry, but if you're going to be one of the honest dealers who does not obfuscate or stretch the truth, you need to just come clean about it. It was stolen. You don't know when or where, other than it was clearly a long time ago. That's all that needs to be said.

I know most of us are in the UK but in all the states I know in the US it is illegal to sell or even own an item that has had the serial number defaced or removed, so would be very difficult to sell there.

Possibly why it found its way to Europe?

But not illegal to sell here unless proven to be stolen.

despite theft being the most likely cause of the damage, it is not the only one that could have occurred over the years.  Some people are just dumb and do silly things like this.

There is a price point where most of us would decide it was worth the risk.  Sounds like that was 15% below market value for one buyer.  It may be more or less than that for the rest of you.

sixstringsupplies

goldtop said:

Be aware that some people will cut some dealers a lot of slack. And in contrast, some people will jump to attack the exact same dealers. Some people got great guitars from Harrison et al and others got burned by them. Because we all form likes/dislikes tat won't be wholey rational.

It's the guitar that matters, not the personalities. Ignore the flowery descriptions, the likely-stories and the name-drops. Tune them all out and concentrate on the wood and wires.

My '55 goldtop came from a dealer (not one in the UK) who has been an expert witness in court cases involving fake Strats. How often, how succcessfull ... well, you can't know, because such court cases are rarely fully reported (even the Harrisons'). The dealer described it as "all original except for one changed capacitor". Cash wired, guitar sent. Within a few minutes of opening the box, my inexpert eye spotted:

• 4 Dimarzio pots (WTF!)
  
• unoriginal R/T ring
• 1970s cavity cover (injection moulded)
• intermittent grounding from the rewiring

I was livid, but after sleeping on it, all of these are fixable. The guitar was great, and restorable. The dealer was simply a liar. He could have spent the time and $$$ finding the right parts and selling a 'vintage-correct guitar' but, being a dealer in a fast-moving-money market, he was simply driven by cashflow.

(FWIW, I got 2000 euro back from the dealer, but spent about 50% more rounding up those parts. Which reminds me of a different sort of dodgy dealer. The US-based guy I bought the correct RT ring from asked me to wire the money to his account ... in Panama!)

After a few beers in the sun today I’m sure I’ve read your post wrong - you spent how much on some (I assume) vintage correct pots, rings and cover? 50% of 2000 euro? Or 50% more than normal? 

Adey

So, if this Gold Top were stolen, maybe it was insured.

The original owner might then claim on his insurance.

The insurance company then owns the guitar (if it ever is found).

And if it is found, the insurance company would re-sell the guitar in order to re-coup their pay-out.

Or does every one think that it has to be destroyed as if it never existed?

Stolen and recovered stuff is re-sold all the time....

Adey

...And perhaps, the guitar dealer who bought the "stolen recovered" gold top in, maybe, the 1970's (when the vintage guitar market didn't really exist), decided to put a sticker over the serial number that had been defaced by the thief.

It would make the guitar look "cleaner".


And a lot of buyers wouldn't even know that there ought to be a lovely, cleanly stamped, serial number underneath the well-stuck-down "Mitch's Musical Masterpieces" sticker.

Or maybe something else happened to it.

goldtop

sixstringsupplies said:

After a few beers in the sun today I’m sure I’ve read your post wrong - you spent how much on some (I assume) vintage correct pots, rings and cover? 

I got 2000 euro back from the lying dealer, but had to spend an extra 1000 (3000 total) for the parts. Correct parts (vintage, not repro) for a 1955 goldtop were/are not common, especially because you have to find ones with a similar amount of wear to the guitar. IIRC, $2000 for the R/T ring alone (luckily the exchange rate was a bit better then, but still...)