Some comments from a vintage guitar dealer...

ATB_Guitars

Hi there,

My name is Mike Long and I am the owner of ATB Guitars based in Cheltenham. I am new to posting on this forum (this is my first post). The reason I have decided to contribute is because I think this forum could use a balanced viewpoint from someone who sells vintage guitars for a living and has done so successfully, for a fair number of years, starting as a hobby, way back when I was at Uni in the 1980’s 

I do not want to get in to the old vs new debate too much as I will have a biased viewpoint on this (of course..:-) I just want to set the record straight and dispel a few myths that have propagated on this forum about vintage guitars, vintage guitar dealers and also about my business.

I sell a lot of vintage guitars, some of you may be surprised by the quantity I sell and I feel I am well placed to comment on the vintage guitar marketplace. I live and breath vintage guitars every single day of my life, they are my passion, my obsession and despite what some call ‘eye watering' or ’stupid prices’ they do sell at, or close to, or even sometimes more than the prices I list them for. Have a look at my website and see the amount of stock on hold or sold. They do not in general stick around for very long.

The overwhelming majority of my customers are players, some of whom also like to collect guitars. They are not super rich, they are just players who have aspired to these instruments for some time and are now at the stage of their lives where they can afford to treat themselves. Pretty much all of them will also realise the investment potential their purchases can bring. They are not all 50+. I am happy to report an increasing demand from players in their 30’s early 40’s and even 20’s. I have seen this demographic steadily rise, especially over the last 3 years for same reason.

Yes, you do have to be careful as there are a fair few 'interesting' instruments out there but if you buy from a dealer you can expect that dealer to be 100% accountable for what they are selling. This is the law, as simple as that. This law obviously does not apply to private deals and just for reference, the number of guitars I receive from private sellers with undisclosed issues is pretty significant.

I think this is a great forum, an excellent resource with some very knowledgeable people on here. However, it seems it is far to easy to make a flippant, throw away comment, based on heresy or an opinion with little or no substance just to seem ‘cool’ to other forum members. There is a human being at the blunt end of this rhetoric and despite what a small minority of people think on here (most of whom I have never had any dealings with), I can assure you I have not got to where I am by being dishonest or ripping people off. 

That all being said, I will look forward to making a positive contribution to this forum and sharing the wealth of knowledge I have gained over my years in this business. Where I can make a valued contribution or comment to a thread I will endeavour to do so. However, because my business keeps me very busy I may not be able to contribute as much as I would like to.  I also look forward to meeting some of you at the two guitar shows (Kempton Pk and Bristol) I do each year. I am more than happy to be contacted about any vintage guitar matters either by DM or tagging me in forum posts and am happy to give personal opinions and advice on any vintage guitars I have knowledge of

Sorry this is such a long first post!

soma1975

Hi, and welcome. 

What would you say were the sleeper 'previously ignored or undervalued' vintage instruments gaining traction and a fanbase these days? 

mr-mac

Don't often find that many flippant comments.  Most are specific dealers or experience with that dealer based.  As with all walks of life there are good, bad, average, excellent and so on which also in your specific specialist market too.

Regardless of law some dealers (vintage or otherwise) do lie, and regardless of law they make it very hard to sort afterwards.  But on flip side others go out their way with honest descriptions and after sales of highest order.

Don't take it too personally as we don't hate vintage dealers as a whole.  We do hate dealers who treat people badly.  I'll assume your in the good guy category as the other sorts would be unlikely to be so public on a forum like this.

Welcome, enjoy your stay, its always good to have experience from all aspects of the trade from manufacturers, dealers, parts, players and so on.

its a great forum 

spark240

Has anyone actually tracked or mapped the value  guitars from new to when it becomes vintage?

For example , I have a yamaha SG from around 1985...I paid less than £400..now its probably double that I guess.....

Generally the vintage tag sees to apply to Fenders / Gibsons....is that correct ? 

jf122

Forgive me for stating the obvious, but I think the poor reputation vintage guitar dealers have generally might be something to do with the experiences buyers have in buying vintage guitars.

There are exceptions to the rule but generally speaking stereotypes exist for a reason. Same reason estate agents have a bad reputation.

If so many people hadn’t been burned buying an “all original” guitar that later turns out to be anything but all original then they wouldn’t be bitching about it afterwards. Of course some buyers are unreasonable as well but dismissing some of the genuine examples of unreasonable behaviour by guitar dealers that have been posted on here recently as “rhetoric” is frankly arrogant. There was a recent example on here of a dealer trying to defraud a seller on a commission sale by lying about the sale price. Was that rhetoric?

Wazmeister

jf122 said:

Forgive me for stating the obvious, but I think the poor reputation vintage guitar dealers have generally might be something to do with the experiences buyers have in buying vintage guitars.

There are exceptions to the rule but generally speaking stereotypes exist for a reason. Same reason estate agents have a bad reputation.

If so many people hadn’t been burned buying an “all original” guitar that later turns out to be anything but all original then they wouldn’t be bitching about it afterwards. Of course some buyers are unreasonable as well but dismissing some of the genuine examples of unreasonable behaviour by guitar dealers that have been posted on here recently as “rhetoric” is frankly arrogant. There was a recent example on here of a dealer trying to defraud a seller on a commission sale by lying about the sale price. Was that rhetoric?

Great post, and pretty much how I feel...

richardhomer

jf122 said:

Forgive me for stating the obvious, but I think the poor reputation vintage guitar dealers have generally might be something to do with the experiences buyers have in buying vintage guitars.

And indeed when trying to sell to a vintage dealer....

octatonic

Wazmeister said:

jf122 said:

Forgive me for stating the obvious, but I think the poor reputation vintage guitar dealers have generally might be something to do with the experiences buyers have in buying vintage guitars.

There are exceptions to the rule but generally speaking stereotypes exist for a reason. Same reason estate agents have a bad reputation.

If so many people hadn’t been burned buying an “all original” guitar that later turns out to be anything but all original then they wouldn’t be bitching about it afterwards. Of course some buyers are unreasonable as well but dismissing some of the genuine examples of unreasonable behaviour by guitar dealers that have been posted on here recently as “rhetoric” is frankly arrogant. There was a recent example on here of a dealer trying to defraud a seller on a commission sale by lying about the sale price. Was that rhetoric?

Great post, and pretty much how I feel...

Agree 100%.

TTony

Welcome @ATB_Guitars ;

Good to have another business here, and someone daring to put their head above the parapet.

jf122 said: Same reason estate agents have a bad reputation.
When we sold our last house, the estate agents were brilliant.

jf122

Like I said, there are always exceptions to the rule. I’ve also had good experiences with estate agents. Predominantly bad overall though.

ICBM

I don't have any issues at all with honest and knowledgable vintage dealers who don't exaggerate, obfuscate or flat-out lie, who disclose each and every part of a guitar which isn't original, don't try to take advantage of a buyer or seller's ignorance, and if they do occasionally make a genuine mistake, are willing to put it right immediately without argument.

Sadly my experience of vintage dealers is that dealers like that are in the minority. Another minority are actively and deliberately crooked, and a large number in the middle seem to think being economical with the truth or pleading ignorance when challenged is just part of the way this business should operate, despite it being quite possible to make an honest profit.

See also: second hand car salesmen. There are honest ones of those too, I have personal experience of a couple. But there is a reason they have the reputation they do in general.

If you're an honest dealer you will be welcome here, and hopefully gain some business.

ATB_Guitars

jf122 said:

Forgive me for stating the obvious, but I think the poor reputation vintage guitar dealers have generally might be something to do with the experiences buyers have in buying vintage guitars.

There are exceptions to the rule but generally speaking stereotypes exist for a reason. Same reason estate agents have a bad reputation.

If so many people hadn’t been burned buying an “all original” guitar that later turns out to be anything but all original then they wouldn’t be bitching about it afterwards. Of course some buyers are unreasonable as well but dismissing some of the genuine examples of unreasonable behaviour by guitar dealers that have been posted on here recently as “rhetoric” is frankly arrogant. There was a recent example on here of a dealer trying to defraud a seller on a commission sale by lying about the sale price. Was that rhetoric?

I am sorry that so many of you have had bad experiences. I do not know how many of the people you refer to have actually bought anything from myself but any dealer who wants to stay in business (in any sector), must look after their customers in the best possible way they can. It is a no brainer.

I cannot say that out of all the 1000's of vintage guitars I have sold there has been the occasional problem, or aspect I have missed. However I do pride myself in my ability to sort out any issues that arise expeditiously and amicably. If no agreement can be reached than I am happy to provide a full refund without question. That is how I think it should work for everyone.

We are human, we are not super human and mistakes do occasionally get made. There is no one out there who knows everything about these guitars and even after all these years hardly a month goes by without me learning something new.

Yes, I have looked over the thread you mentioned regarding the J-200 and all I can say is the way the dealer chose to play it is not the way I would choose. Then again I very rarely do any commission sales, the ones I have done, I have provided sales receipts for the consigners so they can see the whole sale process. Transparency is the key here and there is absolutely no point deliberately trying to deceive. It will bite you back in the end!

Funkfingers

jf122 said:

I think the poor reputation vintage guitar dealers have generally might be something to do with the experiences buyers have in buying vintage guitars.

There is also the problem of unrealistic expectations amongst buyers - as if mere age and originality automatically confer status, monetary worth or musical usefulness.

Spending many thousands of Pounds is no guarantee of securing one's *ideal* guitar. Disappointment is always a possibility. 

ATB_Guitars

soma1975 said:

Hi, and welcome. 

What would you say were the sleeper 'previously ignored or undervalued' vintage instruments gaining traction and a fanbase these days? 

Thank you. That is a good question and one if I could answer with any accuracy I would be very rich! 

Very difficult to say... I always thought the offsets were great candidates for 'sleeper guitars' in the vintage market but they have struggled to get anywhere close to what they should be getting.

I can give you some insights on what has shown strong growth over the last year or two. At one end of the market 50's Les Paul Juniors have shown great growths in price as more people realise what great guitars these actually are.

On the other end of the market place Les Paul Goldtops are very strong right now, I have sold six this year alone and i have people on my waiting list for both clean Juniors and good Goldtops, especially wrap tails.

Black guard Teles are also strong, rising in price and in demand at the moment too. Even refins.

ATB_Guitars

spark240 said:

Has anyone actually tracked or mapped the value  guitars from new to when it becomes vintage?

For example , I have a yamaha SG from around 1985...I paid less than £400..now its probably double that I guess.....

Generally the vintage tag sees to apply to Fenders / Gibsons....is that correct ? 

No, there are many other vintage guitars out there that command a decent price. I sold bernie Marsden's SG 3000 a few years back and was pleasantly surprised the interest it provoked, not because of Bernie either. I only deal in Gibson and Fender now so am a bit out of touch with all the others.

sixstringsupplies

forgive my naivety @ATB_Guitars - is ATB attaboy guitars?

ATB_Guitars

sixstringsupplies said:

forgive my naivety @ATB_Guitars - is ATB attaboy guitars?

It was Atoyboy Guitars but I am very pleased at last to have finally got rid of that temporary name! Case in point - everyone (especially the Americans) added an extra 'A' in the name like you did - Attaboy Guitars - which we were never called.

Stupid name I picked up years ago which is a long boring story... this is ATB Guitars now and it is just a change of name, not ownership or anything like that, we have not gone bust, the limited company I have, I have owned since 1999. 

Brize

Just to say that I've sold four vintage guitars on consignment through @ATB_Guitars and Mike's a gentleman to deal with. All four sold very quickly and Mike sacrificed some of his commission on two of them to help me realise what I needed to get out of the guitars.

Welcome to the bear pit, Mike.

jf122

Funkfingers said:

jf122 said:

I think the poor reputation vintage guitar dealers have generally might be something to do with the experiences buyers have in buying vintage guitars.

There is also the problem of unrealistic expectations amongst buyers - as if mere age and originality automatically confer status, monetary worth or musical usefulness.

Spending many thousands of Pounds is no guarantee of securing one's *ideal* guitar. Disappointment is always a possibility. 

Well I think the main expectation of someone buying an “all original” vintage guitar is that the guitar is, in fact, all original. That doesn’t seem unrealistic to me. I agree though that some buyers can be unreasonable.

GoldenEraGuitars

Welcome Mike  

In a nutshell (and this is the same across the board in retail) you only hear a fuss from the disgruntled customers. It’s the nature of the job (dealing with the public). If the issue isn’t handled very well it ends up in a forum post. Happy customers will only ever post “NGD”. Not, “the dealer I got this vintage guitar from was amazing”. 

Its good to have a balanced view on the vintage guitar market and as someone who will probably never own a vintage guitar I look forward to seeing the threads in the future. 

clarkefan

You, sir, are a breath of fresh air. You do business in a world filled with disreputable people. I've had my fair share of run ins with these people; I've never been ripped, but people have tried. They have brought your business to a point where you can't trust anything, leaving you with no choice but to either be a full on expert in the subject or just don't go there, because you will get shafted. What doesn't come up often is cash flow. I've sold vintage stuff on consignment only to have cheques bounce (twice in one case, someone you'd know well, until cash in a back room was counted out note by note), because these people are living hand to mouth a lot, spending my money hoping some miracle will come around the corner. I recently sold a vintage guitar on consignment, it was valuable enough for me to be concerned about putting it in the hands of a, "vintage dealer". I went in a different direction and (not without some hiccups) all went well. The company was solid enough to take that worry away. I'll bookmark your details f I ever choose to dip my toe again in the vintage world.