Live sound..

digitalscream

p90fool said:

Reading all this, I'm so glad I went direct two years ago. Everything in our band goes through the PA in pub gigs except the bass.
Both guitars are direct via modellers. We have one mix, everybody in the band and the audience hears the the same thing all the time, no mess, no fuss.

I'd dearly love to do this, but being in an originals band we can't rely on having a decent PA - we're pretty much at the mercy of the venue.

Besides which...the only modellers I'd really consider are the Eleven Rack and the Kemper, both of which are significantly more expensive than my entire rig (when you factor in a controller and a decent monitor).

One day...

Si_

@p90fool which modeller are you using?

Handsome_Chris

@Si, you want to try an Axe-FX II.  It'll save you a lot of grief.

Si_

never going back down that route...

p90fool

Si_ said:

@p90fool which modeller are you using?

Just a Zoom G3. It took a fair few rehearsals to dial it in, and eventually I nailed it by A/B-ing relentlessly with my real amps instead of relying on memory to get a good sound. All my patches follow a similar format, boost > graphic EQ > amp model. No modulation, reverb or compression, just in-your-face guitar sound with nowhere to hide. I use three different patches, and haven't changed any parameters for over a year.

I'm a bit of an old-school player in that my real amps are a Princeton and a JTM45 reissue and I constantly use the pots on my guitar Jeff Beck-style, but this is the first generation of cheaper modellers where I've been happy with the dynamic feel at gig volume. I've tried them before, and they either used to get swamped by the band or I'd have weird, unpredictable frequencies jumping out all over the place.

I demand a lot from modellers as we're not a polished, produced-sounding band, and my style and taste require it to do the things that they're traditionally bad at, like huge dynamic swings and warm overdriven tones which clean up on the guitar volume naturally.

The rhythm guitarist uses a Joyo AC-tone with a couple of pedals in front of it, which also works very well and feels very "real" for want of a better word. He stayed analogue simply because he's a Luddite who likes real knobs (snigger).

The Zoom is a doddle though, I didn't even do the V.2 upgrade which doubles the number of spaces in a patch, simply because I don't want to get bogged down with versatility, I just want a couple of very good sounds.

Si_

Handsome_Chris said:

@Si, you want to try an Axe-FX II.  It'll save you a lot of grief.

I've been keeping my oyes open for a Kemper or was even considering an Eleven Rack if i can find a cheap one.

digitalscream

Si_ said:

Handsome_Chris said:

@Si, you want to try an Axe-FX II.  It'll save you a lot of grief.

I've been keeping my oyes open for a Kemper or was even considering an Eleven Rack if i can find a cheap one.

The 11R has one major problem - you can't send a cab-emulated signal to the PA while having an un-emulated signal going to your own rig (at least, you can't do that and still have all your post-amp effects like delay/reverb etc in both). This is because, despite all of the requests to do so, Avid never bothered to split the amp and cab blocks up and there's not enough processing power to have two signal chains (even partial ones).

Very, very frustrating...and one of the reasons I ditched mine. Twice.

Si_

can you run the 11r in 4CM? thinking it might be a replacement for my G-Major for my valve rig. 

digitalscream

Si_ said:

can you run the 11r in 4CM? thinking it might be a replacement for my G-Major for my valve rig. 

You can, but it doesn't like line-level signals. In fact, I'd say it's probably cheaper to get two G-Majors if you're doing that - one in front and one in the loop.

bigjon

p90fool;197566" said:

. We also use an Arbiter Flats kit, because in a pub gig the drums dictate the volume of the band.

That's your secret right there. Having the volume of the drums under control is a far more important component of a good small-gig sound than what sort of amps the guitarists are using

EricTheWeary

bigjon said:

p90fool;197566" said:

. We also use an Arbiter Flats kit, because in a pub gig the drums dictate the volume of the band.

That's your secret right there. Having the volume of the drums under control is a far more important component of a good small-gig sound than what sort of amps the guitarists are using

+1
In my blues band the drummist had an electronic kit. Looked a bit weird but that level of control was the best thing ever!

Danny1969

What do those flat kits sound like, just Youtub'ed and they look more for practice ?

Our drums are mic'ed except for the smallest gigs and even then the kick will be mic'ed.

Someone once told me "Never apologize for being on stage ....not in volume or appearance" 

p90fool

Danny1969 said:

What do those flat kits sound like, just Youtub'ed and they look more for practice ?

Our drums are mic'ed except for the smallest gigs and even then the kick will be mic'ed.

Someone once told me "Never apologize for being on stage ....not in volume or appearance" 

Subjectively they're about two thirds the volume of a normal kit (I know this is nonsense in decibel terms but you get the idea), and they sound very good. They're always in tune too because of the Autotune system, and only having one head per drum just cleans everything up, soundwise.

The advantages in a pub are obvious, but it also mics up well. We've played in front of 3,500 people with it, and after a bit of grumbling about standard mic clips not fitting soundmen love the fact that it's crisp, tight, and always in tune.

EricTheWeary

When Eric Jr was involved with school orchestras they often had the Flats kits and I have seen bands use them in pubs. They take up a lot less room at home/ in the car and they sound fine to me - I guess they don't sound like the real deal to drummers but, apart from drummers, who gives a monkey's |)  I suppose you could argue they lack the visual impact of a full kit too which is important for some. I suppose it's like asking a guitarist to use a Blackstar ID combo rather than their Marshall stack.Possibly.

and +1 to everything p90fool said about them.

ICBM

My old drummer used to use Flats for smaller and semi-acoustic gigs too. Sounded great, because she could play them properly instead of having to pussyfoot around trying to keep the volume down on 'real' drums - which she could, but it just doesn't sound quite right. They weren't actually *that* much quieter either - just usefully enough, and less heavy-sounding, to let the volume of the whole band come down quite a long way.

A bit like the difference between a 15W amp and a 100W amp - a cranked 15-watter is still "loud", but it doesn't fill a space with overpowering volume in the way that a 100-watter can if you need to turn it up to get 'your' sound. You can play the 100-watter quietly, but sometimes it can be a struggle to get them to sound how you want like that.

(I should point out that I use a 100W amp, and mine does sound good at lower volume! But I actually don't play it any louder than a cranked 15W one.)

vasselmeyer

p90fool said:

Reading all this, I'm so glad I went direct two years ago. Everything in our band goes through the PA in pub gigs except the bass.
Both guitars are direct via modellers. We have one mix, everybody in the band and the audience hears the the same thing all the time, no mess, no fuss.

@p90fool That's really interesting, particularly with the gear you mentioned. I think we're having a volume problem at the moment. We're been told we're a decent band but the punters complain we're too loud and we're not getting too many rebookings. We have quite a loud drummer but perhaps he'd play more quietly if the overall volume wasn't so high. I've got a G3 as well as a Joyo AC Tone so conceivably my fellow guitarist and I could go direct fairly easily.

Have you got any recordings/vids of you where you're using this setup?

Si_

I like the idea of going direct to the PA, but not convinced you get the same feel as a speaker stack behind you. I had an AxeFx for 18 months (probably more like 24+ month sir you take into account the 3 that I've owned) and was never brave enough to go through the PA, always used a cab. Plus, I'm not convinced our SRM450 are good enough to do it.

p90fool

vasselmeyer said:

p90fool said:

Reading all this, I'm so glad I went direct two years ago. Everything in our band goes through the PA in pub gigs except the bass.
Both guitars are direct via modellers. We have one mix, everybody in the band and the audience hears the the same thing all the time, no mess, no fuss.

@p90fool That's really interesting, particularly with the gear you mentioned. I think we're having a volume problem at the moment. We're been told we're a decent band but the punters complain we're too loud and we're not getting too many rebookings. We have quite a loud drummer but perhaps he'd play more quietly if the overall volume wasn't so high. I've got a G3 as well as a Joyo AC Tone so conceivably my fellow guitarist and I could go direct fairly easily.

Have you got any recordings/vids of you where you're using this setup?

Not really, only crappy phone videos so far, but I will get it sorted.

I think the importance of appropriate volume is underestimated by a lot of bands tbh. I've seen so many lately who I actually think are better than mine in most respects, but they empty a boozer in minutes. I saw a really good covers band a couple of months ago who were so loud that you couldn't even talk over them when stood outside on the pavement if the pub door was open.
Nobody will re-book them, and it really is a shame.

Drew_TNBD

On the subject of traps kits, I am guessing that in a bedroom they're still going to be way too loud... ?

p90fool

Si_ said:

I like the idea of going direct to the PA, but not convinced you get the same feel as a speaker stack behind you.

Maybe not, but on the (increasingly rare) occasions I find myself on a large festival or concert hall stage I can't really hear my own amps directly anyway, they could be pointing anywhere or even backstage for all I care.
It's funny how at both the very smallest and the very biggest gigs I do I'm only hearing myself through monitors.