Live sound..

Handsome_Chris

BTW, @Si, did you manage to get your problem sorted?

p90fool

Drew_fx said:

p90fool said:

I think a lot of musicians need to take a step back and view live music the way pub going girls in their mid 20s do.

What? That it is created by loser nerds, some of them kinda hot, but pretty much losers... and that it's completely worthless unless it is disco, so I can shake my tits to it?

Nah mate.

I don't know about you guys, but I know that a good chunk of the people who see Tacoma and bands in our scene tend to be people who are either in bands themselves, make music in some capacity, or are huge nerds for music and to them it isn't a throwaway thing - it's life and death shit.

Ah, well there ya go, I was being fairly general about making a living in pub covers bands. Out here in rural Wales there is no "scene" at all, metal bands start their careers playing to their mums and end it playing to their kids, and they always play for free.

My covers band does attract its share of "musos" (shudder), but they don't interact with the band like a pissed-up hen party does, and quite frankly none of us would care if they never turned up at all.

FWIW I totally agree with you about the control of lower-mid frequencies, it's a big source of clutter in a lot of live mixes I hear. Standing waves are less of a problem for us, I like to cure that by playing to packed rooms.

ThePrettyDamned

Muchos wisdom here, I don't understand all of it, but I'm bookmarking this thread for reference.

p90fool

ThePrettyDamned;198482" said:

Muchos wisdom here, I don't understand all of it, but I'm bookmarking this thread for reference.

I agree, I've been dabbling with live and studio mixing for years, but people like Drew and others have a different and knowledgeable perspective to me which prompts a healthy rethink.

Danny1969

One thing to bear in mind with live sound is everything affects everything so it's a compromise. The cymbals are in the vocal mics and act as drum room mics. Bass guitar will bleed into the guitar mics along with the drums. Your decisions regarding low frequencies are normally made to counter shortcomings of the room and the rig. 

Si_

Does anyone know a UK supplier for the beam blockers? going to give them a try..

ICBM

Si_ said:

Does anyone know a UK supplier for the beam blockers? going to give them a try..

It's definitely the "doughnuts" and not "beam blockers" you want - although I still don't know of a supplier, sorry!

"Beam blockers" work (or rather, don't work) on the wrong principle - the idea that the treble beam comes from the centre cap. They can help, a bit - but they also cause an odd 'phasey' sort of sound and uneven dispersion. The "doughnuts" work because the problem is actually the exact opposite - it's not the centre cap that's the problem, it's the highs from the rest of the cone only lining up in phase when you're directly on-axis. So although it seems counter-intuitive, dispersing the signal from the cone and leaving the centre cap unblocked is actually the correct solution.

jpfamps

Drew_fx said:

jpfamps said:

PolarityMan said:

Drew_fx said:

Stop micing up your guitars. In a pub, it is completely unnecessary and just makes the PA struggle. In small pubs, dedicate the PA to kick drum and vocals.

What's the opinion on kick drum through PA with no subs? I'd have thought it will steal headroom for the vocals, especially since we have alot of harmonies but a bit of extra beef on the kick would sure be nice.

The current obsession with micing the bass drum, is in my view responsible in a large part, for the poor quality of live sound I often have to suffer (I usually see 2-3 bands a week).

I'm not sure where this idea originated from, but my suspicion is that it came from drummers who can't hear the bass drum on stage. Hardly surprising as they are sitting behind and very close to the bass drum. 

Regardless as to whether you equipment is capable of amplifying the bass drum cleanly without distorting the vocals, how many gigs have you been to that have been disappointing because you can't here the vocals cleanly, compared to how many that have been ruined because the bass drum wasn't loud enough? 

Even if you like the sound of a close miced bass drum (I generally don't) and like a large amount of bass drum in the mix (again I don't), unless you have a good FOH engineer then it's not a risk worth taking in my view.

Something tells me you're not working with rock.

Anyone who mixes heavy music and doesn't like the sound of a close mic'd bass drum has something wrong with them. I jest... I jest...

It's mainly about giving the AUDIENCE the punch of the kick drum, which means you're able to keep the bass guitar lower in the mix, which means you're not creating a room full of standing waves. It has nothing to do with the drummer wanting to hear himself, although that does happen too. Separate issue.

If a PA cannot handle a kick drum and a vocal at the same time, I am tempted to say the venue is the WRONG place for heavy music. There is a reason some venues will only have acoustic guitars and singer/songwriters.

I have to admit I'm not a massive fan of modern heavy metal/ rock music (although a big fan of 70s rock), and I'm certainly no fan of modern record production.

As this is a guitar-based forum, then my guess is that there is an over represented genre amongst the forum members when compared to the general public (just as I would expect blue-grass to be over represented on a banjo forum).

As I'm sure you know lot of the modern bass drum sounds, especially the death/speed (etc) metal are very heavily processed, and often mixed, both live and in the studio with triggered samples. 

You will never get a "live" bass drum to sound like this with out extensive processing through the PA, and nor would want to as a) a more natural bass drum sound would simply create a total mess in the mix, and b) most drummers can't play that fast on the bass drum loudly and with even volume, necessitating the bass drum going though the FOH in order get the drum in the mix correctly.

I mercifully don't do much live sound work these days, however when I did my strategy was very similar to yours; control the bass and low mids (bass guitar being the worst offender for this), and get the vocals loud and clear in the mix.

What's interesting is that most of the recorded music I listen to is mixed like this, whereas I hear loads of modern music where the vocals seem buried in the mix.

I also grew up with vinyl, which means you couldn't really have much deep bass on records and bass reflex speakers with better bass response than infinite baffle designs where a bad idea due to vinyl warping and mechanical cartridge resonance potentially generating unwanted 2-20 Hz signals which could cause excessive cone excursion on an unloaded speaker.

The advent of CD has made it possible to have a bassier mix without spurious sub sonic LF content.

impmann

As I think I said earlier, this just proves there isn't one perfect way of doing things and everything else is 'wrong'.

Micing up seems to be a bit emotive for some. Personally speaking, we have a sound guy who is pretty much part of the band. If you don't trust who is doing your sound, sack them. Otherwise they are *the best* person to be controlling volumes, EQ etc. if you disagree with that, then see comment above about and perhaps you need help for being an obsessive control freek, maybe.

But agreed, most bands get it wrong. Too loud, too much mids, over ponderous bass and distorting vocals. Then again, getting musicians to spend good money on quality PA equipment can be hard work.

It's been interesting reading, though! :-)

hywelg

Si_ said:

Does anyone know a UK supplier for the beam blockers? going to give them a try..

Here.
I would get some 9mm thich and some 12mm thick. Try the 12mm first, if you find it kills the beam and it knocks off a little too much treble (it will knock off some, you'll need to re-EQ but only slightly) then try the 9mm. Best to get some of their spray adhesive.

Fitting, depends on what the baffle arrangement is. All  mine are both speaker and grille mounted to a ply baffle. Cut a round about 2" diameter bigger than needed. Feed it in between the baffle and the grille (after having unbolted the speaker obviously), make sure its not squashed or stretched in anyway, then draw a cut line with a felt pen. Now remove the foam.

Before cutting the outer circle, get a tin lid about 3" in diameter (or a saucer etc) centre it on the foam (on a cutting board) push down hard to compress the foam and use a stanley knife or modelling knife to cut it out. Sharper the better.

Now cut the outer circle with a sharp pair of scissors

Apply spray glue, wait until nearly dry then push it onto the grille cloth (put a board or something similar on the other side to be able to press against).

Remount the speaker and you're good to go.

Moltisanti

Si, I have a foam beam blocker that i used for a while, I'll chuck it in with the speaker i'm sending you.

In my experience if you don't have a human doing the desk actually in a position where they can hear what the audience hears, then put as little as possible through the PA.

For a pub gig with your PA i would put vocals in the PA, and that's it - no kick, nothing else.

I've done gigs in halls and clubs with decent sized rooms like this and it sounds great.

Si_

That would be cool Thanks. I can test it out and if it works Ok I can source one for the 2nd speaker.