P90s and maple caps

rlw

I have a cunning plan but I need some wisdom before I proceed.  Actually owning a CE24 has been a bit of Saul on the road to Damascus moment for me, the thing is just perfect for me physically - weight, neck, scale length - the lot.   In comparison, my two LPs feel like relics of another time, and not in a good way.

So, I have an LP Special - all mahogany body - with P90s which sounds really good, to me.  In the past I've had other LPs, but with maple caps, and P90s and, to me, they didn't sound so good.  They felt a bit weedy and thin compared to the LP Special.

Is this just my feeling, or do others feel the same?  Clearly, the Gibson R whatever with gold top, maple cap and P90s is a decent guitar but......?

I'm not actually thinking of buying another LP of any sort but I am looking at the satin CE24 Standard PRS which comes with a mahogany body and a set of proper 85/15 pickups.  Why?  Because I think a set of 85/15s would be perfect in my old CE24 and, since you can't buy them anywhere, buying them with a guitar attached is the only option.  And putting a decent set of HB sized P90s into the mahogany bodied CE24 would might produce a very playable and brilliant sounding LP Special substitute.

Or am I quite mad? 

TheMarlin

Ive got 3 P90’s in my Hagastrom Super Swede, mahogany body and neck with maple cap (though, Fender scale). Sounds great to me. No plans to swap the pickups out. Definitely not weedy. 

axisus

Personally I can't believe that a maple cap would have that much effect on a p90, but then I don't sign up to the Eric Johnson "different batteries make my effects sound different" school of thought.

I'm sure that someone with knowledge will give a better opinion, I'm just an idiot looking for a village in the grand scheme of things

rlw

axisus said:

Personally I can't believe that a maple cap would have that much effect on a p90, but then I don't sign up to the Eric Johnson "different batteries make my effects sound different" school of thought.

I'm sure that someone with knowledge will give a better opinion, I'm just an idiot looking for a village in the grand scheme of things

Agree entirely about the batteries being nonsense but I definitely do notice a difference in sound with and without maple caps. Not massive but it's there.  Maybe it's weight, or the thickness or density of the body, or perhaps the cap makes the body ring in a different way  I know it's a daft question but I just wanted to gauge people's opinions.

earwighoney

rlw said:

So, I have an LP Special - all mahogany body - with P90s which sounds really good, to me.  In the past I've had other LPs, but with maple caps, and P90s and, to me, they didn't sound so good.  They felt a bit weedy and thin compared to the LP Special.

I wouldn't expect to it sound weedy, IMO a maple top gives an LP style guitar a bit of a midrange bump and with P90's it sound on the fuller side of things. 

Collings

Why don't you track down one of the older McCarty's that came with P90's?

I think they made the std all mahogany and a maple cap version. 

TheMarlin

Could be many factors. Caps, pot values, pickup differences, pickup height....

when i get a new Gretsch, it takes me a weekend to dial in the pickups (I’m very familiar with Filtertrons). 

A simple pickup adjustment can make a significant improvement in tone

guitars4you

Collings said:

Why don't you track down one of the older McCarty's that came with P90's?

I think they made the std all mahogany and a maple cap version. 

yes did both but far more around with maple top - easy to spot which is which thanks to the 'maple edged binding' 

Funkfingers

Something about the trinity of P90s, an all-mahogany guitar and overdriven valve amplification just seems to work. I have no science to explain this. 

If the P90s are of equal specification, they suffer the traditional Gibson problem of volume imbalance due to greater string excursion above the neck position pickup. The traditional solution of lowering the neck pickup to achieve a volume balance can leave both positions sounding weak. 

Where the maple cap might be a factor in all of this is that the unamplified acoustic sound might be brighter than an all-mahogany body - especially one with no carved cap.

The neck pitch angles may also be significant.

Speaking of necks and angles, the PRS CE24, with its screwed-on maple neck, scale length, different pitch angles, vibrato bridge and pickup placements is more likely to amount to an SG or Telecaster substitute than any LP variant. (None of this is to say that it could not be enjoyable to use.)

Since you inclined to try this idea and have humbucker-sized cavities to fill, I suggest Seymour Duncan P-Rails pickups - probably in combination with Triple Shot mounting surrounds. Wiring the whole thing up could prove extremely tricky but the end result would be an highly versatile guitar.

crunchman

The maple cap has a bigger effect on a PRS because it's thicker.  The top carve is much more pronounced and it's much thicker where the bridge anchors - which is the most important location.  Personally, I'm convinced that's why people complain about PRS tone.  If you can find a Standard they generally sound a lot better.

I've had 5 maple topped PRS guitars over the years and ended up selling the lot.    I've got a couple of mahogany body PRS S2s now that I prefer to all the maple topped ones I had over the years.

@rlw a CE24 with humbucker sized P90s won't sound like your LP Special.  It's a bolt on neck with a different scale length, and as already discussed the maple cap will make a difference.  That doesn't mean it will sound bad, but if you are expecting the same sound then you may be disappointed.

Sporky

Different batteries can have an audible and measurable impact on some effect circuits. Specifically, carbon comp batteries have much higher internal resistance  so as the current draw by the circuit increases  the voltage drops. Reducing the supply voltage in a fuzz or simple dirt circuit affects the sound. 

rlw

Collings said:

Why don't you track down one of the older McCarty's that came with P90's?

I think they made the std all mahogany and a maple cap version. 

Because I want a set of 85/15 pickups.  But as a test, not s bad idea.

rlw

crunchman said:

The maple cap has a bigger effect on a PRS because it's thicker.  The top carve is much more pronounced and it's much thicker where the bridge anchors - which is the most important location.  Personally, I'm convinced that's why people complain about PRS tone.  If you can find a Standard they generally sound a lot better.

I've had 5 maple topped PRS guitars over the years and ended up selling the lot.    I've got a couple of mahogany body PRS S2s now that I prefer to all the maple topped ones I had over the years.

@rlw a CE24 with humbucker sized P90s won't sound like your LP Special.  It's a bolt on neck with a different scale length, and as already discussed the maple cap will make a difference.  That doesn't mean it will sound bad, but if you are expecting the same sound then you may be disappointed.

I’ve got the LP to sound like that but i think that the bolt on neck will give me a much, dare I say it, more Strat like sound. If it doesn’t work I’ll put my original PRS pickups in it instead.

Haych

I once had an all 'hog Gibson LP Special DC with P90s.  Best sounding guitar ever!

I also had a PRS McCarty with maple top and P90s.  Not even close to the same sound to my ears. 

rlw

Funkfingers said:

Something about the trinity of P90s, an all-mahogany guitar and overdriven valve amplification just seems to work. I have no science to explain this. 

If the P90s are of equal specification, they suffer the traditional Gibson problem of volume imbalance due to greater string excursion above the neck position pickup. The traditional solution of lowering the neck pickup to achieve a volume balance can leave both positions sounding weak. 

Where the maple cap might be a factor in all of this is that the unamplified acoustic sound might be brighter than an all-mahogany body - especially one with no carved cap.

The neck pitch angles may also be significant.

Speaking of necks and angles, the PRS CE24, with its screwed-on maple neck, scale length, different pitch angles, vibrato bridge and pickup placements is more likely to amount to an SG or Telecaster substitute than any LP variant. (None of this is to say that it could not be enjoyable to use.)

Since you inclined to try this idea and have humbucker-sized cavities to fill, I suggest Seymour Duncan P-Rails pickups - probably in combination with Triple Shot mounting surrounds. Wiring the whole thing up could prove extremely tricky but the end result would be an highly versatile guitar.

Aha.  Sounding more Tele-like, without being a Tele sounds worth exploring.

Funkfingers

rlw said:

i think that the bolt on neck will give me a much, dare I say it, more Strat like sound.

rlw said:

Sounding more Tele-like, without being a Tele sounds worth exploring.

I have a modified PRS USA EG II - loosely similar construction to your CE24 - PRS HFS, Artist Treble and Artist Bass humbuckers, five-way lever selector switch, no coil splitting. Think Fender on steroids.

guitars4you

Haych said:

I once had an all 'hog Gibson LP Special DC with P90s.  Best sounding guitar ever!

I also had a PRS McCarty with maple top and P90s.  Not even close to the same sound to my ears. 

agree totally different animal

PRS utilise a pair Of S. Duncan p/ups in their model - quite powerful as well - something like 12 or 13K on the bridge and can be to 'spikey' for me - I've heard  a few with replacement p/ups that are more vintage flavoured and the guitar changes character once again - In short the PRS is  a great guitar but sounds better with different pick-ups

Funkfingers

guitars4you said:

agree. totally different animal

IMHO, the scale length is an important factor.

P90 with a Gibson scale sounds right (possibly, by dint of appearing first). Increasingly longer scale lengths sound less right. Usable but less juicy.

Haych

Funkfingers said:

guitars4you said:

agree. totally different animal

IMHO, the scale length is an important factor.

P90 with a Gibson scale sounds right (possibly, by dint of appearing first). Increasingly longer scale lengths sound less right. Usable but less juicy.

It also feels weird to me.  25.5" I have no problem with, 24.75" I have no issue with.  But 25" just feels damn weird.

Funkfingers

Haych said:

Funkfingers said:
IMHO, the scale length is an important factor. 

It also feels weird to me.  25.5" I have no problem with, 24.75" I have no issue with.  But 25" just feels damn weird.

There is a solution to this. Buy more guitars.

axisus

Sporky said:

Different batteries can have an audible and measurable impact on some effect circuits. Specifically, carbon comp batteries have much higher internal resistance  so as the current draw by the circuit increases  the voltage drops. Reducing the supply voltage in a fuzz or simple dirt circuit affects the sound. 

I've noticed that if I rip into a hot Slash solo and I have Ever Ready batteries in my distortion box the whole crowd start booing