Inhumane separation of children from parents

Fretwired

Kilgore said:

It seems that most of the criticism of this policy is directed at the Border Force, a federal agency. You've changed your tune from 'families fleeing conflict' to kids being brought in as a 'tactic' which is it?

  And of course you decided to cut my question of where the buck stops. 

The buck doesn't stop with the president as the states have their own laws on how to deal with this issue .. see my post on Oregon. Trump may find it difficult to find a solution as there is a lack of will in Congress. This has been going on for years.

The US has an asylum policy. People feeing war in S. America can apply for asylum. What these people are doing is entering the US illegally so they get arrested. Children are used as  a 'tactic' in the hope they'll get better treatment. This is proving not to be the case. However, people are being processed and families reunited. It is no worse than the way immigrants are treated in the UK and wider EU. Don't want to be split up? Apply for asylum at the border.

The US has pointed out that four asylum seekers in the UK recently committed suicide over how they were being treated. No threads about May and co ...

But again 'the orange one' is the target and it won't work. People are sick and tired of the constant moaning. It happened over here with Corbyn. The more he was attacked the more popular he became. When it stopped and the media attacked his policies and stance on Brexit his popularity waned.

Playing the man and not the ball rarely works. Don't like Trump then attack his policies.

Here's a news peace from 2011 on how complex this is with US states introducing legislation, in this case that equates to racial profiling, which the US courts reject. Washington claims the US government should be responsible for immigration rules but the US public disagrees and wants tougher controls .. the US is like the EU with the states wanting tougher controls. Trump's policy is simply to stick to existing law .. he's not brought any new ones in.

http://www.homelandsecuritynewswire.com/more-states-push-stricter-immigration-laws

JezWynd

Children are used as  a 'tactic' in the hope they'll get better treatment. This is proving not to be the case. However, people are being processed and families reunited. It is no worse than the way immigrants are treated in the UK and wider EU. Don't want to be split up? Apply for asylum at the border.

Reports I've heard state that all incoming migrants are being separated from their children regardless of whether they've applied for asylum in advance. This is anecdotal so hard to get accurate information and the press have been going overboard with babies ripped from their mother's breast etc.

Trump's policy is simply to stick to existing law .. he's not brought any new ones in.

How the authorities choose to interpret those laws has definitely been affected by Trump's aggressive position on immigration. His pardon of Arapio was a clear message that extreme measures are sanctioned by the White House.

I'll agree that it's Trump's policies that should be attacked, the Democrats response has been pathetic so far ,but it's hard to separate Trump the man from the policies, as he insists more and more to govern from his gut.

There are indications that Mueller's report may arrive in the not too distant future. The s**t will really hit the fan then. Trump, through his mouthpiece Guiliano has been deliberately spreading disinformation in an attempt to soften up the electorate or to get them to a place where they don't care about anything anymore if only he would shut up. Government by disgust and oversaturation of lies - it's the coming thing.

Kilgore

Fretwired said:

Kilgore said:

It seems that most of the criticism of this policy is directed at the Border Force, a federal agency. You've changed your tune from 'families fleeing conflict' to kids being brought in as a 'tactic' which is it?

  And of course you decided to cut my question of where the buck stops. 

The buck doesn't stop with the president as the states have their own laws on how to deal with this issue .. see my post on Oregon. Trump may find it difficult to find a solution as there is a lack of will in Congress. This has been going on for years.

The US has an asylum policy. People feeing war in S. America can apply for asylum. What these people are doing is entering the US illegally so they get arrested. Children are used as  a 'tactic' in the hope they'll get better treatment. This is proving not to be the case. However, people are being processed and families reunited. It is no worse than the way immigrants are treated in the UK and wider EU. Don't want to be split up? Apply for asylum at the border.

The US has pointed out that four asylum seekers in the UK recently committed suicide over how they were being treated. No threads about May and co ...

But again 'the orange one' is the target and it won't work. People are sick and tired of the constant moaning. It happened over here with Corbyn. The more he was attacked the more popular he became. When it stopped and the media attacked his policies and stance on Brexit his popularity waned.

Playing the man and not the ball rarely works. Don't like Trump then attack his policies.

Here's a news peace from 2011 on how complex this is with US states introducing legislation, in this case that equates to racial profiling, which the US courts reject. Washington claims the US government should be responsible for immigration rules but the US public disagrees and wants tougher controls .. the US is like the EU with the states wanting tougher controls. Trump's policy is simply to stick to existing law .. he's not brought any new ones in.

http://www.homelandsecuritynewswire.com/more-states-push-stricter-immigration-laws

As JezWynd points out there are reports that those claiming asylum legitimately are also being separated.

 Trump nailed his colours to the mast from day one in respect of immigration, he has advocated and pursued vigorous enforcement. If we end up with a tent town full of kids, it will be on his watch and he will have to take the flack.

Fretwired

JezWynd said:

Children are used as  a 'tactic' in the hope they'll get better treatment. This is proving not to be the case. However, people are being processed and families reunited. It is no worse than the way immigrants are treated in the UK and wider EU. Don't want to be split up? Apply for asylum at the border.

Reports I've heard state that all incoming migrants are being separated from their children regardless of whether they've applied for asylum in advance. This is anecdotal so hard to get accurate information and the press have been going overboard with babies ripped from their mother's breast etc.

Trump's policy is simply to stick to existing law .. he's not brought any new ones in.

How the authorities choose to interpret those laws has definitely been affected by Trump's aggressive position on immigration. His pardon of Arapio was a clear message that extreme measures are sanctioned by the White House.

I'll agree that it's Trump's policies that should be attacked, the Democrats response has been pathetic so far ,but it's hard to separate Trump the man from the policies, as he insists more and more to govern from his gut.

There are indications that Mueller's report may arrive in the not too distant future. The s**t will really hit the fan then. Trump, through his mouthpiece Guiliano has been deliberately spreading disinformation in an attempt to soften up the electorate or to get them to a place where they don't care about anything anymore if only he would shut up. Government by disgust and oversaturation of lies - it's the coming thing.

On BBC R4 it stated only illegals were being separated which amounted to 2,000 families thus far. I agree that the various states have been emboldened by the comments made, but I thought it was Jeff Sessions not Trump directly. OK he's in the hot seat so he's responsible for the actions and comments of his subordinates so he could issue a denial or sack the guy.

It won't be easy to fix as public opinion in the front-line states is hardcore. These people also voted for Trump so he's between a rock and a hard place. As you say the Democrats are pathetic, but I bet they don't want to upset the apple cart and hand Trump a PR coup.

The same thing in playing out in Europe with Italy, Greece, Austria, the UK and now Germany.

It needs the G7 (the UN is useless) to come up with a strategy, cash and military clout to help and protect people in poorer nations and help them develop. People with a stake in a country, a house, a job, food and free society don't tend to risk their lives in boats to go elsewhere.

Heartfeltdawn

Fretwired said:

But then this threads about Trump bashing not people.

And that is what happens when the man in question, from starting his run to office has done to others. From Ted Cruz's wife to Mexico to Killary to the FBI, CIA, judges... it's very hard to discuss those issues in a nuanced way when they revolve around a man who mostly likely can't spell 'nuanced' let alone appreciate it. 

And in a way it works for him. By keeping people riled up, the central issue is put in second place behind Trump did this he iz evil. So if the left in America wants to regain some ground, they have to stop the anti-Trump attacks and focus on the people and business and situations that his policies affect negatively. 

Fretwired

Heartfeltdawn said:

Fretwired said:

But then this threads about Trump bashing not people.

And that is what happens when the man in question, from starting his run to office has done to others. From Ted Cruz's wife to Mexico to Killary to the FBI, CIA, judges... it's very hard to discuss those issues in a nuanced way when they revolve around a man who mostly likely can't spell 'nuanced' let alone appreciate it. 

And in a way it works for him. By keeping people riled up, the central issue is put in second place behind Trump did this he iz evil. So if the left in America wants to regain some ground, they have to stop the anti-Trump attacks and focus on the people and business and situations that his policies affect negatively. 

^^

Spot on.

Trump is like the Wizard in the Wizard of Oz ... pull back the curtain and you'll find a 'humbug' ... a conman who is amazed he got away with it for so long. Attack Trump's policies (there aren't many of them), come up with better policies and he'll be finished. The Democrats need a decent candidate for President and some real policies. Trump should be easy to defeat as there's nothing behind the bullying bravado.

olafgarten

Trump's strategy has been really obvious even since the start of his campaign. He even wrote a book about it.

He is controlling the media to try and hide the actual issues with his policy and to keep the attention directed at himself. 

As said before, if the Democrats want to regain their lost popularity they need to come up with better policies but it's difficult to come up with something that will have a chance of passing Congress. 

Emp_Fab

I don't buy into that argument.  When the issues, multiple issues, are caused by the man, attacking the man is the only sensible course of action.  Cut the head off the snake etc.

Going after individual issues just divides the opposition into different camps with different priorities.

Fretwired

Emp_Fab said:

I don't buy into that argument.  When the issues, multiple issues, are caused by the man, attacking the man is the only sensible course of action.  Cut the head off the snake etc.

Going after individual issues just divides the opposition into different camps with different priorities.

Not working though is it. The majority of US voters don't like Trump; they think he's a liar and a conman. However they like the fact he does what he says he's going to do, they like his tax cuts, his America First stance, his tough stance on illegal immigration, N. Korea .. in short they think he's effective.

Attack the man and he'll just become more popular. Attack his policies and you might get him out of office.

Some US analysis:

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/05/heres-why-president-trumps-approval-rating-has-gone-up.html

JezWynd

The man is the policy, definitely so for his core supporters who believe they've found their messiah.

Fretwired

JezWynd said:

The man is the policy, definitely so for his core supporters who believe they've found their messiah.

Not true if you drill down through the data. Read the link in my post above. People don't like him, especially women. They like the fact things are happening and the economy is on the up.

Trump has some simple core policies that he's delivering on ... that's why people support him.

Heartfeltdawn

Fretwired said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

And that is what happens when the man in question, from starting his run to office has done to others. From Ted Cruz's wife to Mexico to Killary to the FBI, CIA, judges... it's very hard to discuss those issues in a nuanced way when they revolve around a man who mostly likely can't spell 'nuanced' let alone appreciate it. 

And in a way it works for him. By keeping people riled up, the central issue is put in second place behind Trump did this he iz evil. So if the left in America wants to regain some ground, they have to stop the anti-Trump attacks and focus on the people and business and situations that his policies affect negatively. 

^^

Spot on.

Trump is like the Wizard in the Wizard of Oz ... pull back the curtain and you'll find a 'humbug' ... a conman who is amazed he got away with it for so long. Attack Trump's policies (there aren't many of them), come up with better policies and he'll be finished. The Democrats need a decent candidate for President and some real policies. Trump should be easy to defeat as there's nothing behind the bullying bravado.

Someone needs to come up from the Democrats and talk about their policies and what they can do rather than slate Trump. If they carry on that policy in the manner of Hillary's deplorables comment, they will lose again in 2020 providing Trump keeps himself clean until then. 

It's where Corbyn initially gave some hope for change in this country by preaching a different way. That message has now been lost thanks to a) his lack of engagement over the referendum and b) the increasing militancy of his support base. After seeing some comments last week from certain Corbyn supporters, giving my vote to them would be as bad as voting for May. When you have both strident right wing hard Brexit Tories agreeing with strident hard Brexit socialists, then it's fair to say that our political system is currently arranged over one single issue. 

I'm absolutely positive that there is a Russian connection to Trump that will scupper him and cause some trouble over here. Tweets like this don't serve any other purpose than to attack. The question is for whom he is doing the attacking. 

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1008696508697513985

Heartfeltdawn

Our news is mad but it's not this.

https://twitter.com/LevineJonathan/status/1008726102850797568

JezWynd

Fretwired said:

JezWynd said:

The man is the policy, definitely so for his core supporters who believe they've found their messiah.

Not true if you drill down through the data. Read the link in my post above. People don't like him, especially women. They like the fact things are happening and the economy is on the up.

Trump has some simple core policies that he's delivering on ... that's why people support him.

I accept that there's a (crucial) floating voter element who are going with whoever they perceive as delivering on certain things (jobs, the economy, immigration) but it's undeniable that trump has a core who are wedded to him now whatever he says or does. These are the ones who will support him even if he chooses to gun someone down on 5th Ave. From following Breitbart  for a while, it seems that unifying motives might be racism (Obama drives them insane with rage), gun ownership... all the usual buttons.

I'm absolutely positive that there is a Russian connection to Trump that will scupper him and cause some trouble over here. Tweets like this don't serve any other purpose than to attack. The question is for whom he is doing the attacking.

I've come to a similar conclusion over the past few months. His outright ignoring of the Russian meddling in the election is looking more sus every day. The fact that an American Presdent can ignore a verified atack on their democractic process is ...weird. I thought initially that it was simply his ties to laundered Russian money that he wanted to keep quiet but now I'm prepared to believe the pee tape is a real thing (although if it ever it appeared it would be derided as 'fake news').

Wolfetone

If these latest Chinese sanctions bite, the very people that voted him in will possibly be hit the hardest. Part of the reason they supported him was his promise of prosperity and immigration curbs.

His protectionist policies may come around to bite him. The mid-terms are coming and I think that he's hoping his new found buddy Kim Jong-Un will show him in a good light. 

Axe_meister

This child separation issue could well be the issue that defines the mid terms, especially with female voters, especially mums. One thing that unites almost everybody is kids welfare. The fact that Trumps wife has come out of the woodwork on this issue is telling.
I could even imagine the UN advocating Sanctions against the US.
You just don't use kids as a bargaining chip for a stupid bloody wall.
If the democrats do the honorable thing and let Trump build his wall, the US will soon be bankrupt especially as Trump wants to be another JFK and create his "Space force".
I just hope to god that the Mid terms turn both houses over to the democrats.

Modellista

Illegal immigrants are criminals.  If they wanted not to be separated from their kids, perhaps they should refrain from involving them in criminal activity.

Or are we to simply allow people to commit crime and be on their way just because they have children?  In other words, "I can't be sent to prison because kids" would become a valid defence.  It would take a particularly bleeding heart to go along with that one.

Either that or you just get rid of all borders and all border controls and see what happens.  Good luck with that.

Emp_Fab

Fretwired said:

Emp_Fab said:

I don't buy into that argument.  When the issues, multiple issues, are caused by the man, attacking the man is the only sensible course of action.  Cut the head off the snake etc.

Not working though is it. 

Well, duuuh....  nobody's cut his head off yet !

  

Axe_meister

modellista said:

Illegal immigrants are criminals.  If they wanted not to be separated from their kids, perhaps they should refrain from involving them in criminal activity.

Or are we to simply allow people to commit crime and be on their way just because they have children?  In other words, "I can't be sent to prison because kids" would become a valid defence.  It would take a particularly bleeding heart to go along with that one.

Either that or you just get rid of all borders and all border controls and see what happens.  Good luck with that.

Illegal immigration is NOT a crime in the US it is a mistemeaner (spelling?), asylum is not either. 
There should be family centres where families can be processed and sent back if need be. Not ripped apart.
If a true crime is commuted then the children should be sent to foster homes, not a mass detention centre.

darthed1981

"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Quick someone carve underneath..

"Actually f**king don't, and what's more to stop you from doing so we will take your kids to scare you off!  F**k you huddled masses!"

Seperating children from their parents is what we did in the workhouses in the 19th century, it's barbaric.  It's terrible the number of us, born British by sheer luck and nothing we personally did, who will happily sit back look at human misery and essentially ignore it because it might cost us a few quid!