Have modellers got too complicated?

tone1

@John_A ;

I'm sure Modelles are a lot easier and less faff when you’ve got them setup....but it reminds me of Mrs Doyle on Father Ted when she received the tea maker for Christmas...it’s not the sound of a valve amp I like better or the ease of use, it’s the removal of modern day intervention and the romanticism of it all. I view pedals like a train enthusiast must view buying a new model locomotive. I break out into a cold sweat when I see a USB port on anything guitar related....



https://imgur.com/a/45Zysb3

John_A

@tone1 fully agree, I love the old stuff too  my point was the Helix was a doddle to set up, it doesn't have the same feel good factor as my old jtm45 but certainly sounds as good or better

theres no wrong or right, whatever floats your boat

menamestom

tone1 said:

@John_A ;

I'm sure Modelles are a lot easier and less faff when you’ve got them setup....but it reminds me of Mrs Doyle on Father Ted when she received the tea maker for Christmas...it’s not the sound of a valve amp I like better or the ease of use, it’s the removal of modern day intervention and the romanticism of it all. I view pedals like a train enthusiast must view buying a new model locomotive. I break out into a cold sweat when I see a USB port on anything guitar related....



https://imgur.com/a/45Zysb3

Whilst I know what you mean I bet you have modern DSP powered pedals and are not removed from modern day intervention at all. 
You just like them in a different box with less features  

dindude

menamestom said:

tone1 said:

@John_A ;

I'm sure Modelles are a lot easier and less faff when you’ve got them setup....but it reminds me of Mrs Doyle on Father Ted when she received the tea maker for Christmas...it’s not the sound of a valve amp I like better or the ease of use, it’s the removal of modern day intervention and the romanticism of it all. I view pedals like a train enthusiast must view buying a new model locomotive. I break out into a cold sweat when I see a USB port on anything guitar related....



https://imgur.com/a/45Zysb3

Whilst I know what you mean I bet you have modern DSP powered pedals and are not removed from modern day intervention at all. 
You just like them in a different box with less features  

Or another view is it using modern dsp but let someone else (expert) dial it in and limit the feature set (for non expert). My Universal Audio OX is a great example of limited features but killer sound, and when not hooked up to the iPad (which I’ve done twice in 3 months to get my presets) it has 4 knobs, no screen, and no temptation to tweak. Workflow is perfect for my brain, and a perfect marriage of old and new.

deano

Reading this thread it seems that the idea I had and gave away a few weeks ago might be relevant after all.

In a nutshell I contemplated creating am amp that looked like a famous amp but was internally a digital model.

So for example, something that had exactly the same controls as a JCM 800. However internally the modelling only modelled a JCM 800 but did so fully, from the cleans through to the fully distorted sounds, and you got those sounds by turning the controls just as you would do on a genuine Marshall JCM 800.

No other amps are modelled, nor extra effects or anything else that takes away from it being a JCM 800. Much cheaper of course, but fully modelled.

One of the frustrations I have is that you rarely get modellers that give the clean tones of amps such as Marshalls or Vox Top Boost channels. Not all of us want just the driven sounds. I think Marshall cleans are a great sound but you can’t get them unless you own a genuine valve Marshall. Which is costly.

Putting aside amp manufacturers complaints (which might be worked around by licensing) I thought it was probably about ten years out of date, but perhaps not as it seems that a modelling system with the same controls as the original, might be a solution to the complexity of the user interface that some find difficult to use.

hubobulous

On the Helix, the first page of an amp's settings corresponds to the tone stack/gain as you would expect to have on the real amp and you even get knobs that turn in both directions to change the values. Yes I'm being slightly flippant, but how does this differ to using an actual amp?

Knobs - tick
Easy to understand terminology, (treble, mids, bass, etc) - tick

I know some people love the look and feel of valve amps and of course that's cool. I'm not sure though that I understand the argument that these modellers are too complicated. The Helix models amps and pedals without adding anything that's not there on the original, (aside from perhaps sag and cab settings which are easily ignored).

So the process of adding a pedal or amp into a signal path is something new to learn. But you only need to learn it once and its very simple. The choosing of an amp or pedal is quick - quicker than ordering one of the physical equivalents online and waiting for it to be delivered at any rate. ;-)

goldtop

It's not an either/or situation. You can have the best of both worlds very easily.

My Helix is setup with my valve amp and load box in one of the Send/Return loops. My first Helix patch is a couple of simple Comp/OD pedals then Send out to the amp, Return from the load box into a cab sim, some EQ and then into cho/del/reverb. There's no amp model, all amp tone comes from the valve amp itself - it's just a variation on the 4-cable method, of course.

So I've got the immediacy of the controls on the real amp (and the correct number of controls, with none of Line6's imaginary extra settings), and I've got the conveience and flexibility of the Helix FX/interface/recording outs/etc. And If I want to switch to a completely different modelled amp, it's just a patch change away, with no need to unplug a thing.

Roland

goldtop said:

It's not an either/or situation. You can have the best of both worlds very easily...

It strikes me that, whilst the technology is not either/or, we have a number of either/or points of view. For a start: Those who are comfortable working with complexity vs those who are not. Those who stick to a limited set of amps vs those who like to try everything. Overlaid on top of this is the old digital/analogue debate.

I find myself in several camps, depending on the context. With a background in large scale IT projects I’m comfortable dealing with complexity. When playing live I want the simplicity of limited options.

As an example, I use different wah settings (Q and frequency range) for rhythm and solo playing. Configuring it took time and effort, including testing at gig volume, but the result is that I don’t have to put attention into it when playing. To achieve this without a modeller I’d need two wahs on my pedal board.

As a second example, how many of us spend time and money buying and selling drive pedals in search of “that” sound. With a modeller you can go through a number of options in an hour, AND begin to understand how factors (EQ, compression, drive, etc) affect what you’re hearing. Having been through that learning curve I now have drive pedal models which match the amp models which I use. When I kick in Drive I don’t have to worry which of several pedals to hit.

Blueingreen

To  give a dissident view, for me the "romance of old tech" has no traction whatsoever. If new tech is more practical, sounds as good, is as (or more) reliable and much easier to lug around it's a no brainer.  I can see some of the charm of old tech purely as visual object but that's not important enough to sway me much. It's about practicalities.

I haven't gone down the modelling route yet, but have just bought an HX Effects and am pleased with results in the house.  I expect it to replace analogue pedals into my SS (Quilter) amp which I love.  Once the HX Stomp becomes more widely available I think I'll be getting one to at least give it a try.

Roland

Blueingreen said:

To  give a dissident view, for me the "romance of old tech" has no traction whatsoever. If new tech is more practical, sounds as good, is as (or more) reliable and much easier to lug around it's a no brainer.  

Have a wis

John_A

Roland said:

Blueingreen said:

To  give a dissident view, for me the "romance of old tech" has no traction whatsoever. If new tech is more practical, sounds as good, is as (or more) reliable and much easier to lug around it's a no brainer.  

Have a wis

Have another 

Lebarque

Blueingreen said:

To  give a dissident view, for me the "romance of old tech" has no traction whatsoever. If new tech is more practical, sounds as good, is as (or more) reliable and much easier to lug around it's a no brainer.  I can see some of the charm of old tech purely as visual object but that's not important enough to sway me much. It's about practicalities.

I haven't gone down the modelling route yet, but have just bought an HX Effects and am pleased with results in the house.  I expect it to replace analogue pedals into my SS (Quilter) amp which I love.  Once the HX Stomp becomes more widely available I think I'll be getting one to at least give it a try.

... But they don't sound as good as top valve amps...
But that's another argument and each to their own!

John_A

Lebarque said:

Blueingreen said:

To  give a dissident view, for me the "romance of old tech" has no traction whatsoever. If new tech is more practical, sounds as good, is as (or more) reliable and much easier to lug around it's a no brainer.  I can see some of the charm of old tech purely as visual object but that's not important enough to sway me much. It's about practicalities.

I haven't gone down the modelling route yet, but have just bought an HX Effects and am pleased with results in the house.  I expect it to replace analogue pedals into my SS (Quilter) amp which I love.  Once the HX Stomp becomes more widely available I think I'll be getting one to at least give it a try.

... But they don't sound as good as top valve amps...
But that's another argument and each to their own!

That absolutely do.  They sound ‘different’ when you are playing at home, but in a band context I’d go as far as to say, from the audiences perspective they sound better, and from the players perspective every bit as good

Majorscale

Went on a journey this year from valves & pedals to Helix and then back to valves & pedals. The helix sounded good at some things, not so good at others. It brought simplicity in many areas, but also added complexity in others. Those in the band using in ears liked the tonal change, those on monitors not so much. You get the picture, there’s pros and cons of the digital option just as there are for good old valves and stomp boxes. For me, I generally preferred the tone, usability and feel of the amp and pedal option. Not sure my back or bank balance agree though!!!!