Lure of the burst - R9, Replica or conversion?

designerseye88

I will probably never own a burst, In fact I'm certain I won't unless either my numbers come up on the lottery or I find a pot of gold.

But for those wanting a taste of a burst theirs lots of options out there, an R9, a replica or a conversion are the three main options I can think of. Each have their own pro's and cons but if you were to have one, which one and why?

lewism

Personally, none of the above. I’ve got a couple of vintage Gibsons (very much players grade) and they are what they are, to me the listed options look like what they’re not. For the price of a replica, conversion etc. You could buy one hell of a guitar that is as good sonically but stands in its own two feet. There’s Eggle that immediately stands out as similar but distinct and no doubt lots of other small builders that put everything into their craft. Edit to add Feline too, from what I’ve seen here. I’ve got an Eggle so that was just what immediately sprang to mind.

ArchtopDave

Ultimately you need to find the guitar you like the sound, the playability, and the look. Les Pauls vary significantly. To me, this is a good thing as it gives you choice, though this variation seems to upset a lot of people. You also need to decide if it really has to have Gibson on the Headstock - if it does then no other brand, no matter how good, will do.

I'll own up to having recently bought my sixth Les Paul. My collection now consists of an Epiphone, 3 Gibsons, a Conversion, a Trussart, and the the one I made. I still have them all, though I really should get around to selling the Epiphone. They're my favourite solid bodied guitar. They're all, to a degree, different from each other. 

sweepy

I’m having a 59 Dirty Lemon built for me as we speak, hopefully should be ready @ Christmas. If you know pretty much what you want from a Les Paul then it’s worth getting one built tbh

peteri

If you're ever around central London, drop me a line - I've got a 53/59 conversion you're more than welcome to try.

Very happy I made the choice, cost me a little more than a new Gibson CC - but will at worst break even over time, as opposed to losing money on a new Gibson, and there is a difference (without wanting to start a vintage vs new debate).

Of course the danger with conversions is that you need to get a good one, but that's the same for everything.

If I didn't have this, I'd look very closely at a used Gil Yaron - they are out there, and very close

Skipped

A 'Burst is quite simply a 1950s (or 60) Gibson Les Paul that is routed for Humbuckers.

Surely it is obvious that only one of your 3 options can give you a taste, or more than a taste,  of a 'Burst.

A Replica of a 'Burst is just that - a Replica..... regardless of who the builder is, either the current owners of the Gibson brand, or a talented individual builder.

There are "Replicas" of many different objects. You can buy a Replica Faberge Egg. I would hope that we all understand what a Replica is.

A Conversion is a 1950s Gibson Les Paul that is routed for Humbuckers.

FWIW,  I believe that the guitar being discussed in another current thread is not a Conversion. It is a heavily modified Junior.

ESBlonde

Because no two Gibsons are the same you need to play all the examples available rather than restrict it to this headstock and that paint scheme. As suggested above players grade originals with 'issues' the collectors don't want are very good options. One of the acknowledged world experts on bursts plays a 57 goldtop claiming it puts actual bursts to shame on tone and playability (personal taste of course).

Since you have the lure of the burst, try to overcome the worst excesses of that and look at all the options, don't forget non Gibsons made in the old Kalamazoo factory like Heritage. After a period of time you might find 'the one', it might just be the one for now, but try all the examples and then decide.

p90fool

Go and play some real ones, your expensive obsession may just wear off. 

A late 50s Les Paul standard has become almost a mythical beast, you can talk yourself into trying to become part of that mythology, or you can keep your head screwed on and realise that they are just guitars. 

I'm not totally immune to the romance of old guitars and my favourite guitar is also a Les Paul, but it really is the most bullshit industry out there. 

Get an R9 and gig the paint off it, make your own history. 

terada

p90fool said:

Get an R9 and gig the paint off it, make your own history. 

This all day

IvisonGuitars

I’d have a ‘56/57 Special any day of the week, they can put a ‘Bursts’ shame....and that’s not internet rhetoric from a (self confessed) fan boy, that’s fact, I was in the room when it happened, as was @ourmaninthenorth...

Limehouse_Blues

miserneil said:

I’d have a ‘56/57 Special any day of the week, they can put a ‘Bursts’ shame....and that’s not internet rhetoric from a (self confessed) fan boy, that’s fact, I was in the room when it happened, as was @ourmaninthenorth...

This is certainly true. But it doesn’t have to be a late 50s axe. A good guitar is a good guitar and not all those late 50s Specials are wonderful. I’ve played a 58 special that was a complete dog. Have also played a 54 Goldtop that was deader than a dodo. @p90fool nails it with his comment above.

if the OP wants the vintage vibe without breaking the bank then have the said R9 refin’d. This is what I did with my R0 which was refin’d by Florian Jäger. The process wasn’t cheap but it cost less than a new R9.

fretfinder

I’ll never afford a real ‘burst’, and personally I wouldn’t shell out circa £15k for a conversion either. Firstly because the missus would castrate me, and secondly because virtually all the conversions I’ve seen either have an off-centre top join - which is just plain wrong - or they’ve been retopped in which case, to me, they’re a Frankenstein and no longer a real 50s Les Paul.

I’ve owned more than half a dozen sunburst Historic Gibson Les Pauls, including two Murphys and a Florian Jaeger refin, plus a few Historic Goldtops and two Terry Morgan replicas. Many people think the Morgans are amazing but my two were no better than a couple of the R9s I’ve had, unless you care about the minutiae of control and tailpiece placement, control plate position etc - which I don’t personally. I do care about having the word Gibson on a correctly shaped headstock though, so none of the nearly-Gibsons have ever been a realistic alternative for me. Before anyone chimes in, yes I know that means I’m missing out on lots of other great guitars etc but that’s my choice and I’m happy with it.

The only sunburst LP I’ve kept is a 2005 R9, on which I’ve had the fretboard replaced with Brazilian and proper inlays, plus I’ve changed the pickups and all of the hardware and plastics for aged stuff. It’s not a ‘real’ burst and never will be, and it doesn’t have any lacquer checking or other induced body ageing. But fundamentally it’s a great playing and great sounding guitar, and it looks lovely, and that’s all good enough for me.

As has been said, play as many as you can and make your own mind up. Personally I need to play a guitar for a couple of months before I know it’s a keeper, hence buying and selling quite a few burst types over the years. Good luck with the hunt and enjoy it, it’s a great journey which might take a few years with several stops along the way!

https://imgur.com/a/x54joUt

ourmaninthenorth

miserneil said:

I’d have a ‘56/57 Special any day of the week, they can put a ‘Bursts’ shame....and that’s not internet rhetoric from a (self confessed) fan boy, that’s fact, I was in the room when it happened, as was @ourmaninthenorth...

I couldn't agree more Neil. 

For a few reasons, firstly - they are attainable for a mere mortal such as I. From player grade to unmarked. 'Bursts aren't. I'd rather have a real guitar in hand, than a pipe dream in me head. 

Secondly, in and off themselves, they are exceptional guitars that I absolutely love playing. Better or worse than a 'Burst is a road I'd rather not issue forth on..but I've yet to hear a single one that can't hold it's own in any company. There is a certain neck on a certain 57 that in my modest opinion is one of the best Gibson necks I've ever had the pleasure of playing...seriously. I really didn't want to return it to it's rightful owner...I was gonna pretend I was out when he came for it. 

Thirdly, I'm boycotting Gibson after they sacked the Custom shop leaders. Not bought a single Gibson product since Ed Wilson got the spanish. So the R's after a certain date are off the table for me. Loads of great guitars in the Wilson/Gember era knocking about. I highly rate a 2001 Murphy that I had. 

Lastly, Fakes. The puritan in me refuses to countenance them, but undeniably the ones I have played have been so good that they've made a fool out of me. I just can't bring myself to buy into the delusion of them though. Others have no such issues, and that's fair play. 

What therefore would I do in the OP's position? I'd buy the 59 Special in the classifieds ( oh wait...bugger..Hee hee )  and invest in the best Les Paul that my wallet could stand, that wouldn't necessarily have to say Gibson on the headstock if I'm being candid.

Helpful? Hardly, but I'm glad I've got that off me chest...

poopot

Have one built!... have a word with @customkits ;

breadfan

@fretfinder ;

That's a stunning looking Les Paul!

Does it sound much different with the Brazilian rosewood fretboard?

designerseye88

ourmaninthenorth said:

miserneil said:

I’d have a ‘56/57 Special any day of the week, they can put a ‘Bursts’ shame....and that’s not internet rhetoric from a (self confessed) fan boy, that’s fact, I was in the room when it happened, as was @ourmaninthenorth...

I couldn't agree more Neil. 

For a few reasons, firstly - they are attainable for a mere mortal such as I. From player grade to unmarked. 'Bursts aren't. I'd rather have a real guitar in hand, than a pipe dream in me head. 

Secondly, in and off themselves, they are exceptional guitars that I absolutely love playing. Better or worse than a 'Burst is a road I'd rather not issue forth on..but I've yet to hear a single one that can't hold it's own in any company. There is a certain neck on a certain 57 that in my modest opinion is one of the best Gibson necks I've ever had the pleasure of playing...seriously. I really didn't want to return it to it's rightful owner...I was gonna pretend I was out when he came for it. 

Thirdly, I'm boycotting Gibson after they sacked the Custom shop leaders. Not bought a single Gibson product since Ed Wilson got the spanish. So the R's after a certain date are off the table for me. Loads of great guitars in the Wilson/Gember era knocking about. I highly rate a 2001 Murphy that I had. 

Lastly, Fakes. The puritan in me refuses to countenance them, but undeniably the ones I have played have been so good that they've made a fool out of me. I just can't bring myself to buy into the delusion of them though. Others have no such issues, and that's fair play. 

What therefore would I do in the OP's position? I'd buy the 59 Special in the classifieds ( oh wait...bugger..Hee hee )  and invest in the best Les Paul that my wallet could stand, that wouldn't necessarily have to say Gibson on the headstock if I'm being candid.

Helpful? Hardly, but I'm glad I've got that off me chest...

I think i might know of that 57, If it's the same guitar im thinking of it's the best guitar i've ever played. 

Jock68

If you want the label then there is only one choice.

fretfinder

breadfan said: @fretfinder That's a stunning looking Les Paul! Does it sound much different with the Brazilian rosewood fretboard?

Thanks! To be honest the guitar was away for so long being done (nearly a year, long story...) that I can’t remember if it sounded much different before the Brazilian. But the old Indian rosewood board was very streaky and to my mind visually unattractive, and the new one certainly looks much better - oh the vanity! 

IvisonGuitars

A LOT of wisdom is this thread...!

@designerseye88 The very same...."Burst Killer"  

guitars4you

miserneil said:

A LOT of wisdom is this thread...!

@designerseye88 The very same...."Burst Killer"  

I was thinking likewise and was thinking what to add - I like most of the above comments from @fretfinder ; and @ourmaninthenorth ;

The best replica I've played for years I own and that is an early 57 Gold Top Tom Murphy and still stock - have thought about pick up changes many times, but it ain't crap as it stands, so I keep thinking why go through the hassle for potential marginal gains ???

I'm lucky enough to have played 3 or 4 genuine 59's including the Moore/Green for about 15 mins - What ever magic Gary saw in it obviously suited him, but I did not get the vibe when I played it 

The good news is that despite various negative vibes out there, regarding the fact that the replicas are not 'correct', taking that out the equation, there are many good replicas regarding feel, tone

Like @fretfinder - I've played 2/3 Terry M replicas - To play they are fine, but not a shed load better than many other good Gibson replicas - There is a big buzz about the Terry M models, but I feel the hype is bigger than the end result - Not played a Gil Yaron, so can't comment

I did play a superb early 50's gold top to burst conversion a couple of years ago - Owned by someone local to me and he paid around $10K for it, at the time - Maybe the neck was to slim to be 'correct' for what it was meant to now portray, but nevertheless it played, looked and sounded awesome - Shed loads of character

Glad the replica market exists as otherwise we'd all be playing 'stock' production models - That sounds a snobby statement and it is not meant to be - But most of us won't get to own or play the real thing, so let's be happy with the vast selection of replicas that are out there - Try a few and you'll hopefully find one that really speaks to you - That is the one with your name on it

Danielsguitars

My take on the vintage ones I've played are that they all felt sounded and played fantastic, 54, 55 custom, 56, 58 burst plus juniors etc
Unfortunately I'm never going to own a burst, goldtop etc, i doubt I'd even get a junior now they're creeping up and it's the same for alot of people

The look of a burst is a beautiful thing as well as a beatup goldtop, i played a real 58 and 54 goldtop, i still get regular access to compare my stuff and there wasn't enough difference to me that would warrant spending that kind of money on one, I'd rather have a cobra, even then that'd be a replica lol, now the 54 is the one I'd have gladly taken home, there was a difference in unplugged tone and i still chase that bloody tone 

I've heard the same about Morgans too and one recently that was dead and the guy still bought it then was looking at getting it to sound good, if it's not good why buy the thing, i bet it wasn't cheap 

No one can tell you what you should buy but you need to play them whatever it is