Billy Corgan thinks paint colour affects tone.

Three-ColourSunburst

An illustration of the very different string-bridge-body impedance values for a violin (top) acoustic guitar (middle) and electric guitar (bottom).

Note that the admittance values shown for the acoustic and electric guitar are actually only 1/3 of those shown in the y axis.  The admittance units are also different for the guitar and violin, but I have just cobbled to this together from some of the research papers I have been reading as an illustration. Hopefully I will find something better. Main point is the huge difference in the admittance for the acoustic and electric guitar.

http://imgbox.com/1s4NpnOf

terada

3 Facts of guitar tone:

1. You can blend the inherent timbre of different colours with 'colour over' finishes.

2. A sparkle base coat adds a lot of top end - quite often too much.

3. On a black and white TV a 'lo fi' filter is applied to the tone too. Pretty cool really 

thegummy

crunchman said:

thegummy said:

The SG and Les Paul have different pickup placement so that will be the main factor in the sound difference between those guitars.

Not sure about the 335; if it has the same placement as the Les Paul then I think you might be surprised how hard it would be to tell which is which on a blind test.

Neck pickup is in a different place, but the bridge is in the same place as far as I can see.  Bridge pickup on an SG sounds different from the bridge pickup on a Les Paul.

I've seen it with PRS as well.  I had one of the original PRS Singlecuts with #7 pickups, which was basically a Les Paul style guitar with a maple cap.  I've now got an S2 Singlecut Satin, again with #7 pickups, which is all mahogany.  The S2 has a thinner body, as well as different wood, but according to 3CS that shouldn't make a difference.  They have the same scale length and same pickups (in the same locations) so they should sound the same.  They don't sound the same.  Interestingly, the all mahogany thinner bodied guitar sounds a lot like an SG!  The thicker bodied guitar with a maple cap was a lot closer to a Les Paul.

It's not just LP vs SG vs 335.  If 3CS is correct (which he's not) then the ES175 should sound exactly the same.  It has the same scale and pickups.  If you can't tell the difference between an SG and an ES175, then I respectfully suggest that you get your hearing checked.

That's all I'm saying on this.  I've got drawn into silly debates with 3CS in the past and I'm not doing it again.

Again, it's the blind test that's the crucial thing for me.

For reasons pointed out in this thread, if someone has only compared the sound when they are aware which guitar it is they're hearing then I don't think there's any reason to believe that the perception of difference is really there - only if they can repeatedly tell which guitar they're hearing in a blind comparison between the two.

Surprised there hasn't been a proper blind test carried out since this whole tonewood thing (and related issues) seems such a hot topic.

Three-ColourSunburst

crunchman said:

If that was true, then a Les Paul would sound the same as an SG and a 335, or even a fully hollow ES175.  The all have the same scale length.  I'm pretty sure that Gibson have made versions of all of those with 57 Classic pickups over the years, so you can get them all with the exact same scale length, and exact same pickups, so they should sound the same according to your logic.  It's obvious to anyone with a pair of functioning ears that those four guitars sound different.

No such thing as the 'exact same pickups'. Even the usual variations in pot values are enough to alter the tone of two supposedly identical guitars.

I am not 'trolling'. I have been reading through every research paper and thesis I can find relating to this topic and so far I have found nothing so far that even remotely suggests that the wood the body an electric guitar is made of can affect the timbre of the instrument. (Other than, perhaps, as a secondary perceptual effect due to variations in sustain.) I have found some good reasons why people might believe it makes a difference, but that is another story. Comparative measurements of bridge impedance themselves say that electric guitar 'tone wood' simply can't work.

You might be right, but to be honest I won't be happy until I understand the mechanism of how electric guitar 'tone wood' works (if it does).  And I am not looking to get into another long drawn out debate with the faithful - I've got too much science to still get though! 

Meanwhile, here are just a couple of very different guitars that sound remarkably similar. If there is a difference, and it is not down to the different electrical components fitted to each instrument, then it is insignificant - less than the difference that would result from modifying one's picking or turning the pots down a notch - and, IMHO,  the best thing to do is to stop worrying about 'tome wood' and instead focus on those things that really make a difference to the sound, such as the amp you use.

Cheers!

Hattigol

We could all just be dreaming all of this....

NelsonP

Here's that long thread on tone wood...

http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/112703/body-wood-affects-tone/p1

Let's keep this one on topic. I have three guitars. A white one, a black one and a blue one.

The white one sounds best, by a whisker. So Mr Corgan may be on to something.

prowla

So, if you are colour blind, does that make the guitar sound different?

Three-ColourSunburst

thegummy said:

Surprised there hasn't been a proper blind test carried out since this whole tonewood thing (and related issues) seems such a hot topic.

I think the main reason that more research hasn't been done on electric guitar 'tone wood' is much the same reason why there isn't much phlogiston research done these days. I.e. a basic understanding of physics and acoustics shows that the idea makes no sense.

It is apparent that some Doctoral students begin their research believing that tone wood is a thing, as with a thesis I recently read by a French guy called Arthur Paté. His introduction and references were very poor, using 'expert' references about the effect of tone wood that, when followed up, led to no actual research findings. He also argued that differences in the neck response of two different guitars was due to them having fingerboards of different woods, ignoring the fact they everything else was different as well! He then went on to suggest that the phenomena of neck 'dead spots' supports the 'tone wood' hypothesis, which is a nonsense given that a timbre of an instrument is generally held to be pretty consistent and characteristic of the instrument, not something associated with 'flat spots' and a lack of sustain in a few isolated position on the neck.

As to why the myth persists, one obvious reason is that there are plenty of snake-oil salesmen out there who benefit financially from keeping the notion of electric guitar tone wood alive. Then there are factors that influence people's perceptions, such the acoustic difference between instruments, accepted knowledge, prior expectations and so on. There is probably also a lot to be learned from studying the psychology of similar phenomena, such as the delusions of the audiophiles. I also think that for many a belief in 'tone wood' has taken on an almost spiritual significance, and it certainly sits comfortably alongside all the other mojo and voodoo that infests the world of the electric guitar, from 'crystal lattices' and The Tree, to the idea that if you own an instrument that previously belonged to a famous player, then some of that player's 'magic' will be transferred to it's new owner, and the  supposed tonal quality of oil and paper capacitors.  (A good discussion of that particular myth here)

http://zerocapcable.com/?page_id=224

Just in case you haven't seen this before, this is the only properly conducted scientific study into electric guitar  tone wood I have found so far. (The original is in Portuguese.)  I haven't given up looking though, so who knows what I might find.

Sobre o acoplamento corda-corpo em guitarras elétricas e sua relação com o timbre do instrumento. Physicæ 9, 2010, pp. 24 - 29

("String-body coupling on electric guitars and its relation with the timbre of the instrument.")

Rodrigo Mateus Pereira(1), Albary Laibida Junior, Thiago Corrêa de Freitas.

(1) Tecnologia em Luteria, Universidade Federal do Paraná, Brazil.

Abstract.

Nine electric guitar bodies were built in the form of the Telecaster model by the author RMP. These were assembled using the same neck and pickup assembly. Once each body was assembled two strings of the electric guitar were mechanically excited and the sound, obtained directly from the instrument, was recorded for later analysis. Also recorded was a musical piece played with each electric guitar. These sounds were analysed via a Fourier transform in order to obtain the component harmonics of the sound, these harmonics are responsible for the timbre of the instrument. The harmonic spectra of each electric guitar were compared to each other and there were no significant differences between them. Thus the variations of timbre of electric guitars, according to the results obtained here, depend on other factors than the wood of the body itself, a fact that arises from the absence of a significant coupling between the string and the body of the instrument. Also proposed is a modelling of the string-body coupling, which shows that only a negligible amount of energy from the vibrating string reaches the body of the instrument and that a smaller amount still returns up the string.

http://physicae.ifi.unicamp.br/index.php/physicae/article/view/physicae.9.5/116

https://physicae.ifi.unicamp.br/physicae/article/view/154

Three-ColourSunburst

NelsonP said:

Here's that long thread on tone wood...

http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/112703/body-wood-affects-tone/p1

Let's keep this one on topic.

Sorry, your post popped up after I had composed the one above. I might create another topic about the dreaded topic of 'tone wood' when I have gone through all the research I have collected.

Back to the 'colour affects timbre' hypothesis... 

thegummy

Three-ColourSunburst said:

thegummy said:

Surprised there hasn't been a proper blind test carried out since this whole tonewood thing (and related issues) seems such a hot topic.

I think the main reason that more research hasn't been done on electric guitar 'tone wood' is much the same reason why there isn't much phlogiston research done these days. I.e. a basic understanding of physics and acoustics shows that the idea makes no sense.

It is apparent that some Doctoral students begin their research believing that tone wood is a thing, as with a thesis I recently read by a French guy called Arthur Paté. His introduction and references were very poor, using 'expert' references about the effect of tone wood that, when followed up, led to no actual research findings. He also argued that differences in the neck response of two different guitars was due to them having fingerboards of different woods, ignoring the fact they everything else was different as well! He then went on to suggest that the phenomena of neck 'dead spots' supports the 'tone wood' hypothesis, which is a nonsense given that a timbre of an instrument is generally held to be pretty consistent and characteristic of the instrument, not something associated with 'flat spots' and a lack of sustain in a few isolated position on the neck.

As to why the myth persists, one obvious reason is that there are plenty of snake-oil salesmen out there who benefit financially from keeping the notion of electric guitar tone wood alive. Then there are factors that influence people's perceptions, such the acoustic difference between instruments, accepted knowledge, prior expectations and so on. There is probably also a lot to be learned from studying the psychology of similar phenomena, such as the delusions of the audiophiles. I also think that for many a belief in 'tone wood' has taken on an almost spiritual significance, and it certainly sits comfortably alongside all the other mojo and voodoo that infests the world of the electric guitar, from 'crystal lattices' and The Tree, to the idea that if you own an instrument that previously belonged to a famous player, then some of that player's 'magic' will be transferred to it's new owner, and the  supposed tonal quality of oil and paper capacitors.  (A good discussion of that particular myth here)

http://zerocapcable.com/?page_id=224

Just in case you haven't seen this before, this is the only properly conducted scientific study into electric guitar  tone wood I have found so far. (The original is in Portuguese.)  I haven't given up looking though, so who knows what I might find.

Sobre o acoplamento corda-corpo em guitarras elétricas e sua relação com o timbre do instrumento. Physicæ 9, 2010, pp. 24 - 29

("String-body coupling on electric guitars and its relation with the timbre of the instrument.")

Rodrigo Mateus Pereira(1), Albary Laibida Junior, Thiago Corrêa de Freitas.

(1) Tecnologia em Luteria, Universidade Federal do Paraná, Brazil.

Abstract.

Nine electric guitar bodies were built in the form of the Telecaster model by the author RMP. These were assembled using the same neck and pickup assembly. Once each body was assembled two strings of the electric guitar were mechanically excited and the sound, obtained directly from the instrument, was recorded for later analysis. Also recorded was a musical piece played with each electric guitar. These sounds were analysed via a Fourier transform in order to obtain the component harmonics of the sound, these harmonics are responsible for the timbre of the instrument. The harmonic spectra of each electric guitar were compared to each other and there were no significant differences between them. Thus the variations of timbre of electric guitars, according to the results obtained here, depend on other factors than the wood of the body itself, a fact that arises from the absence of a significant coupling between the string and the body of the instrument. Also proposed is a modelling of the string-body coupling, which shows that only a negligible amount of energy from the vibrating string reaches the body of the instrument and that a smaller amount still returns up the string.

http://physicae.ifi.unicamp.br/index.php/physicae/article/view/physicae.9.5/116

https://physicae.ifi.unicamp.br/physicae/article/view/154

See, for me the right study wouldn't have to go in to analysing harmonic spectra or anything that fancy, it would just have to be, say, 20 sets of clips recorded where the same pickups are put into guitars made of different wood and the people who claim to hear the difference between tonewoods have to detect which each of them are - they would expect to get most or all correct and you would expect them to get no more than chance correct.

Wish that study was done, it would be enough for me to pick a side as long as it was done properly.

JerkMoans

thegummy said:

See, for me the right study wouldn't have to go in to analysing harmonic spectra or anything that fancy, it would just have to be, say, 20 sets of clips recorded where the same pickups are put into guitars made of different wood and the people who claim to hear the difference between tonewoods have to detect which each of them are - they would expect to get most or all correct and you would expect them to get no more than chance correct.

Wish that study was done, it would be enough for me to pick a side as long as it was done properly.

Aren’t there about thirty five Johan Segeborn videos on YouTube where he does just that?  

rico

Some people should get out more. 

Hattigol

"Once each body was assembled two strings of the electric guitar were mechanically excited"...

That's my new favourite phrase.

Wife 'What are you doing?'
Me 'Mechanically exciting my strings'.

Lebarque

customkits said:

How bout just clear coats, surely the purist tone of all

No need for a transparent overdrive pedal with that one...

CasperCaster

'If Billy Corgans white guitar falls off its stand in the rehearsal room, and there is no one there to hear it, does it make a sound?'

And more importantly, does anyone actually care?

photek

prowla said:

With the lights out everything is the same colour.

It’s also less dangerous.

octatonic

photek said:

prowla said:

With the lights out everything is the same colour.

It’s also less dangerous.

That is so stupid...


... and contagious.

Three-ColourSunburst

A state of skepticism and suspense may amuse a few inquisitive minds. But the practice of superstition is so congenial to the multitude that, if they are forcibly awakened, they will regret the loss of their pleasing vision. Their love of the marvellous and supernatural, their curiosity with regard to future events, and their strong propensity to extend their hopes and fears beyond the limits of the visible world, were the principal causes which favoured the establishment of Polytheism. So urgent on the vulgar is the necessity of believing, that the fall of any system of mythology will most probably be succeeded by the introduction of some other mode of superstition.

The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire by Edward Gibbon. Volume 2, Chapter 15 (1781).

photek

Three-ColourSunburst said:

The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire by Edward Gibbon. Volume 2, Chapter 15 (1781).

Slightly more authentic than Edward Chibbon?

deano

See, I'm - like many people on here I guess - scientifically trained. I don't give much credence to woolly phrases, yet the guitar industry is rife with it. Yet to claim that "tone woods" don't exist as a concept isn't right, in my view. So many electric guitars have been built since the mid-40's or so (I think) and we have settled on using a number of specific woods. They are reasonably available, can be worked reasonably easily, have a pleasing look to them, sustain well and have a practical weight, as well as producing a pleasing tone. There are woods that have consistently produced guitars within these limits, and we collectively refer to them as tone woods.

The strings vibrate between the nut and the bridge, but both the nut (via the neck) and the bridge (via the body) are connected to woods of varying species. I suspect that the woods will dampen, selectively, frequencies in the strings vibration. In effect energy will be removed from the vibrating strings, and different woods will do this for different frequencies. This damping effect will be passed on to the pickups and on to the amplifier.

So I believe maple will selectively dampen lower frequencies, leaving more high frequencies to be passed to the pickups, giving what is commonly referred to as a "brighter" tone. Mahogany will selectively absorb energies in the higher frequencies, leaving more mid-range and lower frequencies vibrating in the strings, giving a so-called "warmer" tone. I would suggest that something like plywood dampens frequencies selectively leaving strings vibrating in a less pleasing manner. So plywood instruments don't sound as nice to our ears.

It's about woods absorbing energy from the strings selectively, leaving a more or less pleasing vibration pattern in the string to be captured by the pickups.

Given a different mix of woods on an instrument, guitar builders can take advantage of these damping properties to produce instruments with a given tone.

I would guess that different woods suppress and dampen different frequencies to a greater or lesser extent, and some woods leave frequencies which sound more pleasing to the ear than other woods which don't sound as pleasing to the ear.

Of course the availability, cost, weight, ease of working and sustain are also factors, leading to some woods which dampen frequencies nicely, being easy to build with, having better sustain without excessive weight and cost being used more than others. These are the so-called "tone woods".

Tone woods do exist, simply by their frequent use in producing practical, reasonably affordable and pleasing sounding guitars.

I don't think tone woods can be wished away simply by defining a small set  of narrow parameters detailing how vibrations are handled.