Has Modelling Taken over ?

Haych

crunchman said:

sweepy said:

What prompted the thread originally was the crazily low prices of previously high end amps, even Mesa's etc at bargain prices and it set me thinking that maybe the high end stuff from the mass producers has had its day and its the niche/custom builders that will carry the valve flame in the future. Those Gigging with Modellers in smaller venues etc are probably facing the same type of learning curve that people had in the 60's when Vox Marshall etc came to the fore and it was a case of PA for the vocals etc and separate and very noisy backlines and all the compromising etc etc that that brought with it

I think that is a separate issue from whether modellers are taking over.

With the lower stage volumes you can get away with today, there is a move towards small amps, so the big old 100W heads and the associated cabs are not in demand any more.

There has also been a change in the way valve amps are manufactured.  If you go back 15 years, almost all valve amps were produced in the US or Europe, whereas now a lot of it is produced in the far East (or Mexico in Fender's case).  All valve amps were expensive 15 years ago.  That started to change with the Valve Jr, which was introduced in 2005.

Since then, brands like Jet City have come along with their "offshore" production, with really good amps at very affordable prices.  The likes of Marshall have moved production to the far East to compete.  What people expect to pay for a valve amp has come down.

In the particular case of Mesa, that kind of sound probably isn't as fashionable as it was, so that is another factor.

All of these things have affected the second hand price without even considering the effect of modellers.  I'm sure that modelling has played some part, but it's definitely not the only factor, and probably not the predominant one when considering the prices of second hand Mesas.

Modelling is the future.  I still use a valve amp playing live at the moment, but when Kemper eventually get round to releasing their new reverbs, I'll probably switch to Kemper.  As it is, if I take my Big Sky separately, I lose the advantages of the all in one solution that the Kemper provides.

Whether it's in the form of a modelling amp like the Katana, or a direct option like Kemper/Helix/Axe FX, I would expect modellers to be predominant in 20 years time, if not a bit sooner.  The weight savings and the improved reliabilty over valves will mean more and more people switching over.

I think there's also a generational thing plus the fact that the market is pretty much saturated too.  Plus, the BIG advantage of modelling amps is that you can have one device, or one piece of software, and MANY different sounds, and they are getting better.  That must be driving down prices of even high quality used gear.  To get that kind of versatility from traditional amps you'd need to be lugging around enough amps to make Yngwie think maybe it's a bit too excessive.

Kids learning to play now are more likely to be using a modelling device than a 'proper' valve amp.  In the same way that people don't really know what Kodak Tri-X and Fuji Acros even is let alone the differences in a generation or two most players won't care what a legendary amp is let alone how to get the best out of one.  

That's got to be a worry for manufacturers like Mesa Boogie, who, as far as I know, only do "proper" valve amps.  Their market has to be diminishing rapidly.  At least folk like Marshall and Blackstar seem to be attempting to embrace the technology and move with the times.

I still believe there are players who will buy a high grade amp (or many of) just to have one, in the same way that there are players who have a collection of pristine high end guitars but who never take them out of the house.  Mesa certainly fall into that category and that they offer custom finishes etc might keep their flame burning for a while longer.

I think in the mainstream though, whether we like it or not, modellers are here and they're not going to go away.  Valve amps will live on and their days aren't exactly numbered but as the technology improves and the application of the tech gets better they are becoming more and more unnecessary.

timmysoft

For me, modelling and emulation has completely taken over.

 I've owned so many amps, all the way from budget to boutique brands but always found myself looking for something more. I hate complex set ups, so simplicity was always a huge deal. I toured extensively for 10 years, along with a lot of studio recording, i wish the Helix had been around 10 years earlier.

 After a few years out, i started writing and recording music again and finally got round to putting a band together, i started out with a few amps,but struggled to get a good balance, i was used to being in a two guitar band but the new band was all written for one guitar and i was finding amps just sounded too small. I then took my humble POD X3 to a rehearsal one week when i couldn't be bothered to load my amp into the boot of my car and straight away the feel and sound of the band was much better and much closer to what i was aiming for. 

 I then took the plunge and went for a Helix rack and floor controller, within two weeks i was truly convinced. Its made me a better player and writer and i love the flexibility, even with the most complex of signal chains i can still keep it simple, its been a real revelation.

 Last week my new band did our first gig and the Helix was stunning, i had guys from the other 2 bands asking me what i was using and how i'd got such a big sound from a one guitar band. 

 I won't go back to amps again, the technology in the modelling units is now so good that amps are a thing of the past.

Creed_Clicks

I used a solid state head and small cab and it’s plenty loud enough.
i had thought about getting a small valve combo like the pro junior just to have the variety but the more I read here I’m thinking of ditching all of the amps !

57Deluxe

so when everything has been 'modeled' and there are no more valve amps left, how will we know the 'model' is accurate and will everyone then be arguing over whose 'model' is more valid cos so and so uses a different modeller with better Mbits in it...???

simonk

57Deluxe said:

so when everything has been 'modeled' and there are no more valve amps left, how will we know the 'model' is accurate and will everyone then be arguing over whose 'model' is more valid cos so and so uses a different modeller with better Mbits in it...???

They do that already... see the HX Stomp thread for example.

sweepy

My original post was more aimed at how the market in high end valve amps by brands like Mesa etc has stagnated and how modellers seem to have taken sales away from those types of amp. Portability and flexibility play a part and maybe it’s us older Gimmers with disposable income and a chiropractor to pay that have gone away from the heavier than a White Dwarf star amps and homed in on the niche boutique market, Rift, Jazy J Carr etc and at the opposite end of the Spectrum, Helix, Kemper and Fractal etc

Gadget

simonk said:

57Deluxe said:

so when everything has been 'modeled' and there are no more valve amps left, how will we know the 'model' is accurate and will everyone then be arguing over whose 'model' is more valid cos so and so uses a different modeller with better Mbits in it...???

They do that already... see the HX Stomp thread for example.

And I've seen comments before now claiming that x modelled amp is more 'real' than the real one!

John_A

As a modelling user and fan I really couldn’t care less if it sounds exactly like a Plexiglass, or Deluxe Reverb or whatever, as long as it sounds great.

I love ‘real’ amps too btw, but for what I do a modeller makes it loads easier and imo the end result is just as good

Stevepage

I'm seeing it more and more often  that people are just using modelling now. Specifically Helix and Kemper and they sound great.

The live band I booked for my wedding 6 years ago just used Line 6 Pods straight into their PA and they sounded fantastic.

Just recently bought a Helix LT myself so I too will be switching from valve amp and 4x12 to full on modelling into the PA. So much easier and convenient.

timmysoft

Stevepage said:

I'm seeing it more and more often  that people are just using modelling now. Specifically Helix and Kemper and they sound great.

The live band I booked for my wedding 6 years ago just used Line 6 Pods straight into their PA and they sounded fantastic.

Just recently bought a Helix LT myself so I too will be switching from valve amp and 4x12 to full on modelling into the PA. So much easier and convenient.

Dude, my last load in was done in one trip and didn't kill me! I haven't even needed to put the back seats down in my car yet! 

menamestom

I’m battling on with valve amps.  I’m told they are unreliable, yet in 25 years of gigging I’ve had no reliability issues.  But they are heavy, even though I’ve generally had combos that weigh less that 20kg.  I looked at powered monitors and they don’t weigh much less.

I have a Helix and can see the positives, I guess my problem is I just can’t see any negatives with valve amps, hence why it is so easy to keep using them.  I can’t really see the advantage of using the nearly as good sounding option that equates to a similar amount of gear.

 

Grocer_Jack

I'm semi-tempted to investigate once in a while, then I remember they're a solution to a problem I don't have. I'm sure they sound good now, but the last thing I want to be doing is fiddling about with menus and stuff.

Haych

Grocer_Jack said:

I'm semi-tempted to investigate once in a while, then I remember they're a solution to a problem I don't have. I'm sure they sound good now, but the last thing I want to be doing is fiddling about with menus and stuff.

This is precisely my “issue” with modellers. They’re great at what they do and all but there are just too many parameters to fiddle with IMHO - bit of a daft statement really since that’s the point. 

Add to that the frustration of having to learn to some kind of operating system and it becomes a big enough hurdle to put me off. If you have a modeller that includes effects too then the parameter map becomes something even bigger to navigate and set up. 

Maybe thats a bigoted statement, though, because I haven’t tried them all and I might just be painting them all with the same brush. 

dindude

menamestom said:

I’m battling on with valve amps.  I’m told they are unreliable, yet in 25 years of gigging I’ve had no reliability issues.  But they are heavy, even though I’ve generally had combos that weigh less that 20kg.  I looked at powered monitors and they don’t weigh much less.

I have a Helix and can see the positives, I guess my problem is I just can’t see any negatives with valve amps, hence why it is so easy to keep using them.  I can’t really see the advantage of using the nearly as good sounding option that equates to a similar amount of gear.

 

This is the bit that I think is overlooked. People seem to forget that modelling is replicating something that is thankfully still readily available, reliable and not too expensive. I do get it for sheer flexibility, you’d never own all the amps in the Helix. I guess it’s just the way you operate, I’ve always owned one amp at a time, then use guitars, pedals, and now the OX at the arse end to draw a vast variety of sounds out of it.
I don’t mind digital fx, cab emulation (few have the ability to really mic an amp properly), I just don’t get amp modelling, largely because it still sounds/feels not as good as the real thing, which I’ve got right in front of me.

TTBZ

menamestom said:

I’m battling on with valve amps.  I’m told they are unreliable, yet in 25 years of gigging I’ve had no reliability issues.  But they are heavy, even though I’ve generally had combos that weigh less that 20kg.  I looked at powered monitors and they don’t weigh much less.

I have a Helix and can see the positives, I guess my problem is I just can’t see any negatives with valve amps, hence why it is so easy to keep using them.  I can’t really see the advantage of using the nearly as good sounding option that equates to a similar amount of gear.

 

That's kind of how I feel about it too. I can also do load in in one trip - guitar in one hand, combo amp in the other and pedalboard over the shoulder. Obviously a floorboard modeller would be easier, but then you have to rely on the PA being decent, which they're definitely not in most rehearsal rooms and can barely cope with putting one singer through the speakers.

I wonder if Yamaha will ever update the THR100 concept? That's my preferred modelling amp solution since it's very simple to use with real dials and switches, and a nice portable head/cab. 

thecolourbox

p90fool said:

mixolyd said:

I haven’t watched any piano performances on tv this year so maybe things have changed but every piano sim I’ve heard up to now has sounded nothing like a piano.

 Digital pianos and workstation keyboards have been a live staple for decades so there is no expectation that the piano sound like an actual acoustic instrument.  Pop and dance music use these faux pianos in the studio all the time for their consistent attack and eq.

Of course there are some great vst pianos with deep multisampling and these are heard on a million film and tv scores, but that’s a very different sound from the keys that are used live.

I do dabble a bit with piano in my studio, but have had previously cynical players who have never played any kind of digital piano be astonished by the depth and complexity available from VST pianos. 

Some digital pianos are up there in terms of quality, but don't forget that pianos are often EQ'd to sit in a pop mix, where a full on Bosendorfer sample would swamp every other instrument. 
Most pianos in pop mixes sound thin and plinky compared to a real concert grand, but that's usually deliberate. 

The most important point in an average gigging band though is that the choices are between fake guitar amp/real guitar amp and fake piano/no piano. 

As a modern music instrument, the fact that digital pianos sound good enough has more to do with the content that is played upon them, in my view.

Phil_aka_Pip

Not for me, why would I junk my prize 1960s Marshalls? Although for live work (to save humping gear about and reduce the risk of damage or theft) I might be tempted with it - same as using a cheap copy instead of a prize Gibson.

57Deluxe

Of course the days of the Modeller as a clumsy/ugly piece of hardware must also surely now be numbered too, when soon, you can just have it as an App on your phone...

Haych

57Deluxe said:

Of course the days of the Modeller as a clumsy/ugly piece of hardware must also surely now be numbered too, when soon, you can just have it as an App on your phone...

Please no! While the technology can probably do the job it’s the wrong way to go, in my own personal opinion. 

A hardware device with real knobs to control all the various parameters is the way to go. Make it as easy to set up and use as a real amp. 

The Yamaha THR appeals because of this but I also like the idea of the Positive Grid concept too. If that could be developed it would be a great idea - standardise the software from all manufacturers so you can take your favourite software modellers and load them onto one device that behaves like a real amp and that has real knobs to dial in. 

It wouldn’t have to be big or heavy either, but that’s the way I’d like to see modelling go. 

MentalSharps

accidental triple post -- see below!